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	<description>Let these stones be a witness to what we have done here this day.</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<itunes:summary>12 Witnesses:  The blog of Art Rogers.</itunes:summary>
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		<itunes:category text="Society &amp; Culture"/>
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		<title>Institutional v. Missional Church:  Culture</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/23/institutional-v-missional-church-culture/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/23/institutional-v-missional-church-culture/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[<p><strong>[Please note:  I know this article is even longer than its predecessor.  If you don't want to read it all, I completely understand, but if you would skip to the concluding 1/3 of the article, you will find the overall point laid out there.  Obviously, the groundwork is important in my mind, but having become a skimmer of blogs I understand that you may not care to go that far.  If you are a member of Skelly Drive Baptist Church, particularly if you are in leadership or on a Search Committee, please try to wade through it all.  Thanks!]</strong></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve decided to work through some more <a title=\"Dictionary:  Prolegomena\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5tZXJyaWFtLXdlYnN0ZXIuY29tL2RpY3Rpb25hcnkvcHJvbGVnb21lbmE=" target=\"_blank\">prolegomena</a>* before running through the structural descriptions and illustrations.  I think this background will help with the overall picture as we progress.</p>
<p>Today, the subject is culture.  I think the word &#8220;culture&#8221; is often problematic because because it is accurately used in such divergent ways.  I hear and read traditionalists often use the word to refer to what the Apostle John called &#8220;the world&#8221; when he wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong><span id="en-HCSB-30740" class="sup">15</span> Do not love the world or the things that belong to the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in him. Because everything that belongs to the world—  <span id="en-HCSB-30741" class="sup">16</span> the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride in one&#8217;s lifestyle—is not from the Father, but is from the world.  <span id="en-HCSB-30742" class="sup">17</span> And the world with its lust is passing away, but the one who does God&#8217;s will remains forever.   - 1 John 2:15-17 (HCSB)</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Which is different from the way he uses it earlier in the chapter:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong><span id="en-HCSB-30726" class="sup">1</span> My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the righteous One.  <span id="en-HCSB-30727" class="sup">2</span> He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.    - 1 John 2:1-2 (HCSB)</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Again, the use of the word &#8220;culture&#8221; in this way is not &#8220;wrong,&#8221; but it is a limited scope of the use that I will make of it.  So let me explain what culture is for our discussion.</p>
<p>I confess that the term was mostly abstract to me until this year.  When talking about culture, I thought of traditions and ways of doing things that are different from me.  Which is correct, but shallow.  For the greater part, I viewed culture as a matter of perspective.  You just see things a little differently than I do.  Also correct.  Kind of.</p>
<p>Perspective is actually more a result of culture, rather than the essence of culture.  You see things the way you do as a <em>result</em> of the culture into which you are immersed.  It is not the culture itself.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t really understand culture until February of this year.  In fact, unless you have had a similar experience, my description of this transformational moment may fail to help you grasp what I finally caught standing on the street in Hanoi, Vietnam.</p>
<p>Hanoi, like many places around the world, has a unique traffic &#8230; er &#8230; situation.  You see, the traffic in Hanoi has very little regulation.  The entirety of the city, at a population of 6.2 million (including outlying metro areas after an official merger in just a couple of weeks, which will double the official city population, according to <a title=\"Wikipedia|Hanoi, Vietnam\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2h0dHA6Ly9lbi53aWtpcGVkaWEub3JnL3dpa2kvSGFub2k=" target=\"_blank\">wikipedia</a>), has only a handful of stoplights, which have only recently been installed and to which only the majority of the population adheres, most of whom do so from the back of a scooter.  In other words, stoplights in Hanoi are just a suggestion to many, when they exist at all.</p>
<p>The entire flow of traffic is governed by a chaos theory that seems also to govern the flight of flocks of birds and schools of small fish that flow and turn together as both individuals and collective.  Well, it might help you to better see it in action, so here is a little YouTube video to help you get a sense of it.</p>
<p><object classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" width="425" height="350" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oetF3UTIwbc" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oetF3UTIwbc"></embed></object></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll follow this up with a couple of pictures I&#8217;ve produced here before of the exact same intersection:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA1L2Zyb20tdGhlLWNpdHktdmlldy5qcGc="  rel=\"lightbox-820\"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-756" title="From the City View" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/from-the-city-view.jpg" alt="" /></a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA1L2luLWEtc2VhLW9mLXRyYWZmaWMuanBn"  rel=\"lightbox-820\"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-757" title="In a Sea of Traffic" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/in-a-sea-of-traffic.jpg" alt="" /></a></p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
<p>Now I know that you are already thinking about my last post concerning the individual and are speculating about how I am going to say that the Missional Church needs to act in a similar fashion with the individuals in fluid motion inside the whole - all moving together to accomplish the goal.  Great thinking!</p>
<p>But, no.</p>
<p>The revelatory experience as I observed the traffic in Hanoi was about the saturating nature of culture within society.  How do you learn to drive in such an environment?  You are immersed in it.  Everyone teaches you through trial and error (hopefully not critical error) and you learn.</p>
<p><strong>Here&#8217;s the big point</strong>:  Culture is something that everyone in the society agrees upon as commonly accepted behavior.  You learn it as you go because everyone in the entire society teaches it to you.  No matter where you are, if you break the boundaries of what is commonly accepted, you will be corrected by those around you.  That correction may be verbal, hostile, kind, a gesture or something else.  It may come from relative, friend or stranger.  Nevertheless, everyone in society holds everyone else accountable for their cultural standards.</p>
<p>The results of which are key.</p>
<p>It is incredibly difficult, once something is ingrained in a culture, to remove it.  Look at tobacco in America.  There has never been such a targeted campaign to rid a culture of anything that has been sustained and fueled like the campaign to rid America of tobacco.  You could count prohibition, but I would argue that the majority of influential society was not actually on board with that campaign like the support the anti-tobacco campaign has.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, tobacco still survives the crippling lawsuits and picks up new converts daily.</p>
<p>Another result of the saturation of culture, is that churches have a culture of their own, and that culture has some specific elements to the local church, but also participates in concentric and overlapping circles of culture that radiate out through the local context, denominational influences and even the churched society of America inclusive of all denominations over the last 50, 100, 350 years.  As a matter of fact, most of the &#8220;decline of the American culture&#8221; emails, rants, sermons&#8230; even songs, that I pick up on are really decrying the fact that American culture doesn&#8217;t reflect the church culture the way it once did.  It is not that American culture is dead.  We still have national values.  Those values just don&#8217;t reflect the values of the people in church.</p>
<p>For evidence of this, look at the recent move toward conservationism and the typical response of the evangelical community.  America values &#8220;eco-friendly&#8221; lifestyles, but the church doesn&#8217;t.  In broad terms, anyway.  Read this article on the <a title=\"Eco-Justice Blog\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2h0dHA6Ly9ub3J0aGVhc3RpcGwuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tLzIwMDcvMDYvaG91c2UtcGFzc2VzLWNsaW1hdGUtYmlsbC1jaHJpc3RpYW5zLmh0bWw=" target=\"_blank\">Eco-Justice Blog</a> for a brief example.</p>
<p>Now, as it relates to Missional and Institutional Church structures, there are a few consequences of church culture.  Of course, it means that the church has to work to understand the culture it is trying to reach - <a title=\"Amazon|Breaking the Missional Code - Putnam, Stetzer\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbWF6b24uY29tL0JyZWFraW5nLU1pc3Npb25hbC1Db2RlLU1pc3Npb25hcnktQ29tbXVuaXR5L2RwLzA4MDU0NDM1OTIvcmVmPXBkX2Jic19zcl8xP2llPVVURjgmYW1wO3M9Ym9va3MmYW1wO3FpZD0xMjE2NzkyOTU2JmFtcDtzcj04LTE=" target=\"_blank\">Breaking the Missional Code</a> - so to speak.  That&#8217;s the easy part.  Or, at least, the point most obvious to those interested in Missionality.</p>
<p>The more difficult part is deciphering your own church culture, or at even getting the church to realize that it has its own culture.</p>
<p>Because culture is saturation, most people assume that the way they think is &#8220;normal.&#8221;  It is, for their context, but what they don&#8217;t realize is that they are a part of a commonly agreed upon system of values that has them convinced that those values are &#8220;<span style="color: #000000;"><strong><em>RIGHT</em></strong></span>&#8221; and violation of those values is &#8220;<strong><em>WRONG</em></strong>.&#8221;</p>
<p>For those saturated in the church culture, it means that certain songs, worship styles, modes of dress, lingo and even the evaluation of staff (&#8221;working&#8221; in the office during office hours, as opposed to being in the community, for instance) becomes something that is &#8220;right&#8221; because it is what they have always seen and done.  This is most humorously and sadly seen in the comment, &#8220;We&#8217;ve never done it that way before&#8230;&#8221; in response to a desire to make a change in any process of the church.</p>
<p>For the individuals and the church as a whole to accept the fact that the things that they have learned from each other and held as valuable are not necessarily <strong><em>right</em></strong> but just what they are used to doing is probably the most significant yet overlooked step in getting a church and its individuals mobilized in the community.</p>
<p>The failure to identify church culture is a de-motivator as well as a barrier to missional engagement.  It sucks away motivation because individuals look at those outside the church as living &#8220;wrongly&#8221; and their solution is to simply tell them that they need to get into the church and live &#8220;rightly.&#8221;  This mires the church and the individual into an attractional mode, at best, and can trend to move the church and individual into a judgmental attitude.  This creates an almost impenetrable barrier between the church and its internal culture and the unchurched and their culture, with very little national or local culture to act as a common bond between them and no motivation by either to break through that barrier.</p>
<p>Thus, the best, first thing that a church can do is identify and then evaluate its own internal culture and see what things might need to be excised from itself.  As I mentioned with the tobacco issue in America, simply identifying the ingrained value as needing to be gone is not enough.  It takes time, teaching and will sometimes take the absence of those unwilling to see beyond their raising before the culture becomes able to embrace a new system of values.  We see this taking place in the Exodus as the adults of Israel, despite the plagues, despite the pillar of smoke/fire (glory of God&#8217;s personal presence), the protection against the armies of Egypt by the separation of the two by the pillar/presence of God still complained that they would rather be slaves.  After the Red Sea and the destruction of the Egyptian armies, they still refused to take the promised land even with God as their head, and so, ultimately, God had to allow those who were saturated with the slave culture to die off and raise up a generation who were saturated with a culture that depended daily on Him for their very provision, via manna, quail, water, etc.</p>
<p>Sadly, churches in transition may well have to experience similar absence of those who can not introspectively evaluate their own church culture.</p>
<p>Still, the first major undertaking is personal self evaluation and the comparison of that which is demanded of God to that which is normative for us as dictated by that in which we were raised.</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>*prolegomena - For Vicki and Tiffany, this word means &#8220;stuff you have to talk about so that the stuff you are going to talk about later makes sense.&#8221;  By defining the individual previously and culture now, it will be easier to understand the conversation about transitioning between structures later.</p>
<p>Who knew Systematic Theology would pay off? <img src='http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMjMvaW5zdGl0dXRpb25hbC12LW1pc3Npb25hbC1jaHVyY2gtY3VsdHVyZS8jY29tbWVudC0xNTI4Nw==">July 23, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2Nvb2xyYXk5MjVAY294Lm5ldA==" rel='external nofollow'>Bart Rhea</a> writes: Teach on. Waiting and  anticipating Chapter 3.

In our last meeting we summed up our thoughts and agreed that there is a world going to hell and we need to reach them...maybe at the expense of stepping out of our (SDBC) culture and stepping into theirs. In doing so "our" culture may rebel.

Keep it up!!!!!</li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMTAvMTEvbWlzc2lvbmFsLW1pbmF0cmVhLWRlZmluaXRpb25zLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Missional Minatrea: Definitions\">Missional Minatrea: Definitions</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMTgvaGFuZy1pbi10aGVyZS0yLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Hang in there&#8230;\">Hang in there&#8230;</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMjEvaW5zdGl0dXRpb25hbC12LW1pc3Npb25hbC1jaHVyY2gtdGhlLWluZGl2aWR1YWwv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Institutional v. Missional Church:  The Individual\">Institutional v. Missional Church:  The Individual</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDIvMTcvZWQtc3RldHplci11bmlvbi11bml2ZXJzaXR5LWJhcHRpc3QtaWRlbnRpdHktY29uZmVyZW5jZS8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Baptist Identity Pt. 8\">Baptist Identity Pt. 8</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMTEvMjgvdGhlLW1pc3Npb25hbC1hc3NvY2lhdGlvbi8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: The Missional Association?\">The Missional Association?</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=820" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<item>
		<title>Institutional v. Missional Church:  The Individual</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/21/institutional-v-missional-church-the-individual/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/21/institutional-v-missional-church-the-individual/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>I know, dear reader, that I have been woefully negligent in my blogging.  Even after I promised that I would return with passion loaded, I found myself awake at midnight on Sunday evening and not having written for the day or week ahead.  At all.</p>
<p>It was not a matter of not caring, either.  Rather, I found myself consumed by responsibilities in ministry, family and even simply personal.  Yet, I had one of the most profound weeks last week, in spite of its demands.</p>
<p>Though it is all still in process, I think I have finally adopted a Missional philosophy that I can call my own.  It&#8217;s two, four, ten and thirty years in the making, depending on your starting point of choice.  Nevertheless, it has finally gelled.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s more, I think that I am mostly unique in my thinking.  A long conversation, Providentially arranged, helped me to realize that my core values and theories of efficiency are moderately distinct from many other leaders in the Missional movement, though similar to a minority.</p>
<p>Well, more on that later in the series.</p>
<p>Right now I simply want to lay the foundation of the entire thought of reformatting the church structure:  The Individual.</p>
<p>The Missional Church is, fascinatingly, made up of missional individuals.  I know.  Shocker.</p>
<p>Suffice it to say that the thing that sets the Missional Church apart has to be the goal of mobilizing the individual to engage people living apart from God.</p>
<p>Then to address structure, the Missional church has to be one that facilitates the efficiency of individual mobilization.</p>
<p>The rest of the series is intended to discuss the structural details, so I will not start that here.  I will simply say that the primary issue of the shift between what I call the &#8220;Institutional Church&#8221; structure and the Missional Church structure is the removal of barriers that inhibit the personal engagement of the individual.  Ok.  More on that later.</p>
<p>Speaking to the issue of motivation, the Institutional church - that is the church that runs everything through the structure of the Church, from evangelism to discipleship to fellowships to worship to ministry opportunities - de-motivates its congregants with the provision of, and reliance on, the structure of the church.  The &#8220;outreach&#8221; is done (poorly) by a handful of people on a given night of the week by knocking on doors (which is unwelcome in today&#8217;s American culture) and going through a scripted presentation of the Gospel - if the people will let them in.  This creates, in the minds of everyone else, that the &#8220;outreach&#8221; is taken care of and they don&#8217;t have to particpate or even worry about it.</p>
<p>For the Missional church, the primary motivator for individual engagement is teaching God&#8217;s Word, which is full of the Missio Dei - the sending of God, or the Mission of God.  As Milfred Minitrea said, the church doesn&#8217;t have a mission.  It&#8217;s God&#8217;s Mission.  To make it ours is to make it small.</p>
<p>The combination of teaching and opportunity will, prayerfully, create engagement.  When opportunity is taken by the individual, when they participate in God&#8217;s Mission of redemption toward His creation, the experience becomes its own fuel.  How many times have you seen someone share Christ for the first time and become absolutely addicted to the experience?  How many &#8220;Mission Trips&#8221; have you seen revolutionize the lives of the teenagers who are its participants?</p>
<p>So I had been teaching for a while that we were all &#8220;Missionaries.&#8221;  Then it hit me one day after returning from Vietnam.  We&#8217;ve got to quit using the word, &#8220;Missionary.&#8221;   I had been with a former IMB Missionary, now heading up Northwood Church&#8217;s NGO:  Glocal Ventures, Inc.   We had discussed how, through the years, we had been taught that Missionaries were the top tier of holy servants of God.  Pastors were next, followed by secondary staff and then the deacons, Sunday School teachers, Nursery workers and various and sundry other servants in some miscellaneous hodge podge of lesser Christians.  Also, the culture there prohibited us proclaiming the &#8220;M&#8221; word as it was a barrier to us engaging those living there.</p>
<p>I began to think that the same word was a barrier to us here - both for those in the church (because we have &#8220;them&#8221; on an unrealistic pedestal) as well as those out of it (because of its &#8220;churchified&#8221; lingo).</p>
<p>So, one day I announced that we weren&#8217;t going to call ourselves &#8220;Missionaries&#8221; any more, even though I had been saying that we would for about a year.  Rather, I said, we will now call ourselves &#8220;servant messengers.&#8221;  The sermon, as you might surmize, was on the value of serving people as a door to personal engagement.</p>
<p>Afterward, one of our senior adult ladies came up to me and said, &#8220;You know, Pastor, you kept saying that we should all consider ourselves as missionaries, and I just couldn&#8217;t picture myself like that.  But then today you said that we were servant messengers and I thought, &#8216;Now I can do that!&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>I wish I could tell you all of the stories of people who are beginning to engage the world around them.  I&#8217;ve already made this article longer than it should be, so I won&#8217;t.  Let me just say that the reason I couldn&#8217;t sleep is because I got a call at 9:10 pm tonight telling me of how one of our Youth Workers saw some Hispanic kids playing soccer on our church grounds tonight and, prompted by the Holy Spirit, she walked over and started talking to them, shaped the conversation toward God and shared the Gospel.  She also invited them to participate in some of our stuff and told them that they were welcome any time.  Of course, we are not stopping there in God&#8217;s pursuit of them, but the point is she saw the oppotunity and, following the Holy Spirit, she let God use her in His Mission.</p>
<p>Structurally speaking, we have not really made any changes yet.  Two years in, and we are just getting started, but at least in theory, I think I understand where we are going.  As I said before, more on that later.  Nevertheless, the motivation is taking root and God is on the move.</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMjEvaW5zdGl0dXRpb25hbC12LW1pc3Npb25hbC1jaHVyY2gtdGhlLWluZGl2aWR1YWwvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyODU=">July 22, 2008</a>, Bart Rhea writes: Colossians 4
  2 Devote yourselves to prayer; stay alert in it with thanksgiving. 3 At the same time, pray also for us that God may open a door to us for the message, to speak the mystery of the Messiah —for which I am in prison — 4 so that I may reveal it as I am required to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the time. 6 Your speech should always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you should answer each person.

What a great example our Youth Leader was to not only the “outsiders” but to our own youth as well.

You are hitting the nail on the head. As individuals we have to leave the walls of the church expecting to “walk in wisdom toward outsiders”. Actively put our faith in action and walk. But do it wisely and…toward…go where they are. Don’t expect outsiders to come to us within the 4 walls.

Good stuff as always Art. Bring it on. Keep it up. Look forward to chapter 2.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMjEvaW5zdGl0dXRpb25hbC12LW1pc3Npb25hbC1jaHVyY2gtdGhlLWluZGl2aWR1YWwvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyODY=">July 22, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL0hlY2FsbHN5b3VieW5hbWUuY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Jim Barnes</a> writes: Ditto to what Bart says, Maybe we should put signs above all the exit doors of the church ao that we could remember that "WE ARE NOW ENTERING THE MISSION FIELD"!!
Jim Barnes</li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMTgvaGFuZy1pbi10aGVyZS0yLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Hang in there&#8230;\">Hang in there&#8230;</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDkvMTAvcmVnZ2llLW1jbmVhbC0yYS8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Reggie McNeal 2a\">Reggie McNeal 2a</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDUvMjIvaGVyZXMtbWlzc2lvbmFsLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Here&#8217;s Missional\">Here&#8217;s Missional</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDYvMjYvbWlzc2lvbmFsLTIv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: MISSIONAL 2\">MISSIONAL 2</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDUvMTQvdGhlLW1pc3Npb25hbC1sZWFkZXJzLWdhdGhlcmluZy1hdC10aGUtc2JjLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: The Missional Leaders Gathering at the SBC\">The Missional Leaders Gathering at the SBC</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=817" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Hang in there&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/18/hang-in-there-2/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/18/hang-in-there-2/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 04:33:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Blogging]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Hey, it has been a phenominally full week.&nbsp; It has been a good one, but more than I could get to and blog.</p>
<p>Next week looks better and I will give you a few thoughts about the Missional and Institutional Church.&nbsp; Some things have gelled for me and I have come to some resolution now about where we are as a church and where we need to be.&nbsp; Perhaps it will be helpful to you.</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDQvMjMvYmV0dGVyLWJsb2dnaW5nLXVwZGF0ZS8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Better Blogging:  Update\">Better Blogging:  Update</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDgvMjIvaGFuZy1pbi10aGVyZS8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Hang in there\">Hang in there</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDkvMDIvYWJvdXQtYmFwdGlzdC1wcmVzcy8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: About Baptist Press\">About Baptist Press</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDMvMjMvcGx1c2VzLWFuZC1taW51c2VzLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Pluses and Minuses\">Pluses and Minuses</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMjQvZm91bmRlcnMtY29uZmVyZW5jZS10ZWQtY2hyaXN0bWFuLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Founders Conference:  Ted Christman\">Founders Conference:  Ted Christman</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=816" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Movie Quote</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/14/movie-quote/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/14/movie-quote/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 05:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[movies]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>With deference to the prolific memorable dialog from Doc Holiday in Tombstone, I have a new movie quote from a movie not widely viewed, but which I have come to enjoy.</p>
<p>The movie is &#8220;<a title=\"IMDB  Stranger than Fiction\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pbWRiLmNvbS90aXRsZS90dDA0MjAyMjMv" target=\"_blank\">Stranger Than Fiction</a>&#8221; and it follows IRS agent Harold Crick as he begins to hear the narration of his life by author Karen Eiffel, though she is unknown to him at the time.  This isn&#8217;t a review - I may do that some other time - but just to set up this long quote by the author at the end of the movie.  It turns out the author is writing a novel and has writer&#8217;s block.  She&#8217;s been writing this book for ten years.  It so happens that the narrative of her story is the narrative of Harold&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>That narrative revolves around Harold&#8217;s drab existence that blossoms into love:  for life, for his only friend and for Miss Pascal - a lady, very different from himself, whom he is auditing - as Eiffel struggles to end her book.  And the story is about Harold&#8217;s watch, which is ignored by Harold but is anthropomorphic and becomes its own character.  The hitch is that the book she is writing, the narrative of Harold Crick&#8217;s existence, is fictional in her mind, but is actually the very real narrative of Harold&#8217;s life.  And thoughts.  And feelings.  And she kills people.  And Harold, struggling with the already disconcerting experience of hearing his life narrated in his head then hears the line, &#8220;Little did he know that this seemingly innocuous act would lead to his immanent death.&#8221;</p>
<p>At this point, he gets quite concerned.</p>
<p>As I mentioned, Eiffel has been in a ten year writer&#8217;s block, but her previous books all end with the death of the central character, hence, she is struggling to find a way to kill Harold.  Harold begins a frantic search to find her so that he can stop her from killing him and their worlds collide, creating a moral crises.  Apparently the book is no longer just a work of fiction as it seems to govern Harold&#8217;s existence.</p>
<p>It is a well written movie, which is why I have decided that I like it, and filled with stars like, Will Ferrell (Harold), Maggie Gyllenhaal (Ana Pascal), Dustin Hoffman (Prof. Hilbert), Emma Thompson (Karen Eiffel) and Queen Latifah (Penny Escher).  And there are more.  The two guys from those Sonic commercials are IRS agents.  Very well cast and funny for those who enjoy dry wit.</p>
<p>Anyway, the movie deals with the issue of free will and destiny, albeit not from a theological perspective.  As such, some parts fascinate me as to the imprint of God&#8217;s presence on the world.  Here is the final quote from Karen Eiffel after she relents from killing Harold who, instead of dying, is critically injured saving the life of a child.  I guess I wrote a review after all.  It&#8217;s a long quote that makes even more sense in the movie, but I think you might enjoy it.</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>As Harold took a bite of Bavarian Sugar Cookie, he finally felt as if everything was going to be &#8220;ok.&#8221;</strong></p>
<p><strong>Sometimes, when we lose ourselves in fear and despair, in routine and constancy, in hopelessness and tragedy, we can thank God for Bavarian Sugar Cookies. </strong></p>
<p><strong>And fortunately, when there aren&#8217;t any cookies we can still find reassurance in a familiar hand on our skin. </strong></p>
<p><strong>Or a kind and loving gesture.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Or a subtle encouragement.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Or a loving embrace.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Or an offer of comfort.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Not to mention&#8230;</strong></p>
<p><strong>Hospital gurneys.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And nose plugs.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And uneaten danish.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And soft spoken secrets.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And Fender Stratocasters.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And, maybe, the occasional piece of fiction.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And we must remember that all these things, the nuances, the anomalies, the subtleties, which we assume only accessorize our days are, in fact, here for a much larger and nobler cause. </strong></p>
<p><strong>They are here to save our lives.</strong></p>
<p><strong>I know the idea seems strange.  But I also know that it just so happens to be true.</strong></p>
<p><strong>And so it was a wristwatch saved Harold Crick.</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works to the good of them who love Him,who have been called according to His purpose.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Phriday foto:  07-11-08</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/11/phriday-foto-07-11-08/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/11/phriday-foto-07-11-08/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Photoblog]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Phriday fotos]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Politics]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[picture]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=810</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Here are a few pics, previously unpublished, from my hike in Red Rock Canyon.  If you like these, you can see them and others on my <a title=\"12 Witnesses Photoblog\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3Bob3RvYmxvZy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29t" target=\"_blank\">photoblog</a>.</p>
<p>I hope you like these.  This hike is a nice little state park near Hinton, OK, just off I-40, about an hour West of Oklahoma City.  Check it out, if you get the chance.</p>
<p><a title=\"Pathway\" rel=\"lightbox[pics810]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA3L3JlZC1yb2NrLWNhbnlvbjViLmpwZw=="  rel=\"lightbox-810\"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-811" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon5b.jpg" alt="Pathway" /></a></p>
<p><a title=\"Evergreen\" rel=\"lightbox[pics810]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon15b.jpg" wp-att-812" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon7b.jpg" alt="Evergreen" /></a><a title=\"Cactus Flower\" rel=\"lightbox[pics810]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA3L3JlZC1yb2NrLWNhbnlvbjE1Yi5qcGc=" rel="lightbox-810"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-813" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon15b.jpg" alt="Cactus Flower" /></a><a title=\"Dragonfly\" rel=\"lightbox[pics810]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon58b.jpg" wp-att-814" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon50b.jpg" alt="Dragonfly" /></a><a title=\"Deep Woods\" rel=\"lightbox[pics810]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA3L3JlZC1yb2NrLWNhbnlvbjU4Yi5qcGc="  rel=\"lightbox-810\" rel="lightbox-810"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-815" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/red-rock-canyon58b.jpg" alt="Deep Woods" /></a></p><div class="ngg-galleryoverview" id="ngg-gallery-7"><div class="slideshowlink"><a class="slideshowlink" href="/feed/?show=slide&PHPSESSID=fa4bcb13651c206d948cea8a72cda7bb">[Show as slideshow]</a></div><div id="ngg-image-28" class="ngg-gallery-thumbnail-box ">
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<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTExLTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjY1">July 12, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wYXVsbGl0dGxldG9uLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Paul</a> writes: As a kid our youth group would take trips to Red Rock canyon.  My parents own a cabin near a little lake close by, so the red dirt, cacti and bamboo all bring back some really fond memories.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTExLTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjY2">July 14, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Paul,

My wife used to go there for school projects and field trips.  In fact, she has an infamous story about a field trip there.

She was suspended for accidentally shooting a classmate with a pellet gun there in High School on a Science class field trip.  It is a family legend.  :)</li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDQvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA0LTExLTA4Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 04-11-08\">Phriday foto 04-11-08</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDUvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTUtMTEtMDcv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 5-11-07\">Phriday foto 5-11-07</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDYvMDgvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA2LTA4LTA3Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 06-08-07\">Phriday foto 06-08-07</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDQvMjUvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA0LTI1LTA4Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 04-25-08\">Phriday foto 04-25-08</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDgvMzEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA5LTAxLTA3Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 08-31-07\">Phriday foto 08-31-07</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=810" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Church Staffing:  Mis-Matched by Malcolm Gladwell</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/09/church-staffing-mixed-matched-by-malcolm-gladwell/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/09/church-staffing-mixed-matched-by-malcolm-gladwell/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 05:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[ministry]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Speaking to a conference hosted by the New Yorker, Malcolm Gladwell speaks to the issue of hiring the right people.  More specifically, he talks about the tools we use to evaluate the future success of candidates and how those tools are often the worst ones to use.  It&#8217;s fascinating to see how poorly we evaluate people for future success.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5uZXd5b3JrZXIuY29tL29ubGluZS92aWRlby9jb25mZXJlbmNlLzIwMDgvZ2xhZHdlbGw=">Reinventing Invention: Online Only Video: The New Yorker</a></p>
<p>What tools do you think we use that are poor indicators of future success?</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDUvMTkvc3RhZmZpbmctdGhlLWNodXJjaC8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Staffing the Church\">Staffing the Church</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDUvMjIvY2h1cmNoLXN0YWZmaW5nLWVkdWNhdGlvbi12LWV4cGVyaWVuY2Uv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Church Staffing:  Education v. Experience\">Church Staffing:  Education v. Experience</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDUvMjcvY2h1cmNoLXN0YWZmaW5nLWVkdWNhdGlvbi12LWV4cGVyaWVuY2UtcHQtMi8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Church Staffing:  Education v Experience, pt 2\">Church Staffing:  Education v Experience, pt 2</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDMvMjMvcGx1c2VzLWFuZC1taW51c2VzLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Pluses and Minuses\">Pluses and Minuses</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMTEvMTUvc2J0Yy8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: SBTC\">SBTC</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=809" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Voting One&#8217;s Convictions</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/07/voting-ones-convictions/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/07/voting-ones-convictions/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 05:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Politics]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[culture]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=804</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><a title=\"vote\" rel=\"lightbox[pics804]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA3L3ZvdGUuanBn"  rel=\"lightbox-804\"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-808" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/vote.jpg" alt="vote" /></a>I&#8217;ve heard it argued that to vote one&#8217;s Christian convictions, especially this year, the vote must <strong><em>not</em></strong> be cast for either of the two major party candidates that appear to have finally sewn up their party&#8217;s nomination.  We think.</p>
<p>The argument, as <a title=\"Micah Fries|The Lesser of Two Evils\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL21pY2FoZnJpZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMjYvdGhlLWxlc3Nlci1vZi10d28tZXZpbHMv" target=\"_blank\">recently posted by my friend Micah Fries</a>, goes that to pick the lesser of two evils, which McCain and Obama are supposed to be, then you have to choose &#8220;evil.&#8221;  Therefore, vote your convictions and let the chips fall where they may.</p>
<p>I would like to humbly challenge this thought process.</p>
<p>The conclusion above assumes that avoiding the election of someone that would lead us away from my overall convictions is a choice that leads to me not voting my true convictions.  In fact, to avoid leadership that would, in my opinion, shipwreck our nation is a very firm conviction of mine.</p>
<p>In America&#8217;s not too distant history, we have precisely two perfect examples of people voting for third party candidates in order to &#8220;vote their convictions&#8221; - one to the Republicans and one to the Democrats.</p>
<p>In 1992, <a title=\"Wikipedia|Ross Perot\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9Sb3NzX1Blcm90" target=\"_blank\">H. Ross Perot</a> ran as a candidate for President against George H. W. Bush, the incumbent, and William Jefferson Clinton.  While both parties hemorrhaged disenchanted voters to Perot, the Republicans were the greatest loser.  As a result, though Bill Clinton did not even receive a majority of the popular vote, the electoral college swung his way and the Republicans endured the Democrats&#8217; most beloved leader since JFK, the &#8220;Teflon Don&#8221; of Presidential politics, <a title=\"Wikipedia|Bill Clinton\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9CaWxsX0NsaW50b24=" target=\"_blank\">Bill Clinton</a>, who was re-elected and served for 8 years.</p>
<p>In 2000, <a title=\"Ralph Nader|Wikipedia\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2VuLndpa2lwZWRpYS5vcmcvd2lraS9SYWxwaF9OYWRlcg==" target=\"_blank\">Ralph Nader</a> eschewed calls from the Democrats to step aside.  Rather, much like Perot, and like the &#8220;lesser of two evils&#8221; argument, Nader declared that both candidates, George W. Bush and Al Gore were so similar that the difference was negligible.  This was a Green Party slap in the face to Al Gore, who claimed to represent the Environmental interests.  It turns out, that Nader was probably right.  At least in evaluating Bush&#8217;s and Gore&#8217;s personal commitment to the environment, it is well documented that Bush&#8217;s ranch in Texas is a model of &#8220;earth friendly&#8221; efficiency, while Gore&#8217;s is an energy hog and burns natural gas at a rate of 12 times that of his neighbors, while only having a house 4 times as large - <a title=\"Snopes|A Tale of Two Houses\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5zbm9wZXMuY29tL3BvbGl0aWNzL2J1c2gvaG91c2UuYXNw" target=\"_blank\">documented on Snopes</a>.</p>
<p>What is my point with all of that?  Apparently, the environmentalists, at least enough of them, agreed with Nader and voted for him.  George W. Bush, though losing the popular vote, won the <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">boondogle</span> court case in Florida and the Supreme Court of the United States and the electoral college that goes with it.</p>
<p>What are the results of these two turns?</p>
<p>Many, but most tangible are the appointments to the Supreme Court.  Bill Clinton:  Ginsburg and Dreyer.  George W. Bush:  Chief Justice Roberts and Alito.</p>
<p>And here we are again.</p>
<p><a title=\"Boston Globe|Supreme Court Speculation\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ib3N0b24uY29tL25ld3MvbmF0aW9uL3dhc2hpbmd0b24vYXJ0aWNsZXMvMjAwOC8wNi8yNy9yZWNlbnRfcnVsaW5nc19zcG90bGlnaHRfZWxlY3Rpb25zX3N1cHJlbWVfc3Rha2VzLw==" target=\"_blank\">A report from the Boston Globe</a> documents the speculation that at least one if not three justices are on the verge of retiring.  It also documents that the court is very definitely split between two groups of 4 right leaning and 4 left leaning justices, with Justice Kennedy often now the swing vote.</p>
<p>There are justices in both &#8220;camps&#8221; that are possible retirees.</p>
<p>All of this is to say, whoever wins the election will most likely control the court and it will swing one way or the other.</p>
<p>Oh, and the Globe also reports that Obama is promising to appoint justices with a &#8220;broader social outlook&#8221; and McCain is promising to appoint justices more int he model of new Chief Justice John Roberts.</p>
<p>This is not to mention the vast number of vacancies on lesser Federal Benches that the left leaning Congress has declined fill, delaying the nominees of President Bush in hopes of replacing him with a more liberal President that will nominate men and women to fill the gaps in a way that will suit them better.  The lower courts are backed up to the point of violating the Constitutional right to a speedy trial and the Congress can&#8217;t hold out another four to eight years.  Allow the election of the wrong President, and they won&#8217;t have to wait.</p>
<p>I humbly submit to you that I will be voting for a major party candidate this year and will not hesitate to &#8220;vote my convictions&#8221; - even if he is not the one I would have chosen a year ago.  My convictions are that we return the our courts to their conservative roots and not have justices that legislate from the bench.  Presidents and Congressmen come and go, but the courts last for decades.</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTM=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL21pZ2h0eWZvd2wuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Bob Cleveland</a> writes: I don't know (nor care)whom you're going to vote for, but I couldn't agree more with this post.

Well done.

Bob Clevelands last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL21pZ2h0eWZvd2wuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvcHJvdmVyYnMtMzUtNi1saXZlLXZlcnNpb24uaHRtbA==" rel=\"nofollow\">Proverbs 3:5-6, Live Version</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTQ=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2RlYmJpZWthdWZtYW4ud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Debbie Kaufman</a> writes: I take voting very seriously, and this is the first election in memory that I have not wanted to vote for either. I believe strongly with you that voting our convictions is the correct way to vote, and if more would do this, it does send a loud, clear message.

Debbie Kaufmans last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2RlYmJpZWthdWZtYW4ud29yZHByZXNzLmNvbS8yMDA4LzA3LzA3L2JhdHRsZXMtYW1vbmctY2hyaXN0aWFucy1wYXJ0LTIv" rel=\"nofollow\">Battles Among Christians Part 2</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTU=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Deb, thanks

Bob, I tried to write impartially, but I'm afraid the concluding paragraphs failed.  Still, thanks for the encouragement.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTY=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50aGViaWdkYWRkeXdlYXZlLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Big Daddy Weave</a> writes: Ford gave America the liberal John Paul Stevens.  Reagan gave America the moderate Sandra Day O'Connor.  Reagan also gave America the swing-voter Anthony Kennedy.  George Herbert Walker Bush gave America the usually liberal David Souter.  

All four Justices were nominated by conservative Republican Presidents.  All four Justices have voted on multiple occasions to uphold Roe v. Wade and voted in favor of gay rights.  All four have played key roles in drafting decisions like Casey that gave the right to have an abortion a more or less permanent place in American society.

You seem to have a great amount of confidence that McCain the Maverick, the guy who lead the Gang of 14, will nominate a Justice in the mold of John Roberts who will restore what is often called conservative values.

Reagan and Bush I made those same promises.  Look what they gave America.

In regards to the claim of "legislating from the bench"

I've reached the conclusion that the accusation of "legislating from the bench" says less about the Justice's judicial philosophy and more about accusers disagreement with the decision being handed down.  Liberals and conservatives both make claims that Justices legislate from the bench.  "Legislating from the bench" is not a disease that has infected only liberals.  Just over a week ago I read an article by E.J. Dionne who was lamenting that the conservative justices were "legislating from the bench" in the recent DC Gun ruling.  Constitutional lawyers, journalists, and analysts will always make these arguments regardless of the Court's makeup.

I do think that all Christians should vote their convictions and be active participants in the democratic process and in the public square.  I also think that Christians can express their faith-informed convictions by voting third-party as well.  My Nader friends always annoyed me but I had respect for them and their sincerely held belief that the two-party system is broken.  

On election day, I hope to see more of my fellow evangelicals cast their vote with me for Obama!  :-)</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTc=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Aaron,

I noted in reading background for this post that those justices came from "conservative" Presidents.

I did a poor job of not "siding" with a candidate, but since you have openly called for Obama votes and since I did such a bad job of hiding my under girding predispositions, let me say that my confidence is not in McCain.  The whole point of this article is that I have NO CONFIDENCE in Obama, and will, therefore, happily vote for McCain and I believe that such is voting my conscience.

But, let's please leave it there.  I have no desire to turn this into a candidate specific tet-a-tet.  :)</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTg=">July 7, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5yaWNrYm95bmUuY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Rick Boyne</a> writes: Art,

In the spirit of the last paragraph of your comment number 5, let me say that I completely agree with your post and my vote this year will NOT be in favor of any candidate; it will be in complete opposition to a certain candidate.  In that manner, I am voting my convictions as well.

I think we are on the same page.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTk=">July 7, 2008</a>, Sheila Rogers writes: I'm with Debbie, I don't see anything good about this election.  For me it is just a scary thing to think of either one of them being elected. 
 I don't get what is so great about Obama or why one would hope he gets the votes. 
I totally get what you are saying Art..  Do you watch Glenn Beck too??</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNjE=">July 8, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3N1c2NlcGl0LmJsb2dzaXRlLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Steve Austin</a> writes: Americans have been complaining about the length of this election process for over a year. The payoff is that we find out earlier and earlier who to hope gets nominated and who to start reading up on. 
I'm hoping either Sen. Wm. Proxmire, Gen. Andrew Jackson, or Teddy Roosevelt steps out from behind a curtain soon! I can't imagine McCain in the Executive Mansion, and I can't imagine Obama ever even becoming a senior state senator, much less in Washington. I honestly believe you could run the Obamamessiah for governor in every state of the union and he'd lose every race.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNjI=">July 8, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Sheila,

I don't watch Glenn Beck.  I don't have the time, I'm afraid.

Steve,

I don't think he would lose every election.  There are plenty of people behind him and in certain states where the electorate is concentrated in larger cities (which trend Democratic) I think he would win in a cakewalk.

I know a lot of Republicans who are very afraid of him winning and a number of others who seem to be resigned to that fact, which is dangerous for them.  If Republicans think its a done deal, they are likely not to turn out and the sentiment becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

However, I have said before privately and now say publicly, that one should never underestimate the racism of America.

I am against racism - it is rank sin.

Commenting objectively, though, Obama is going to have to overcome old white people who will come out of the woodworks just to keep a black man from becoming President.  On top of that, the accusations that he has Islamic ties/heritage will be a hurdle for a completely different section of society.

McCain, on the other hand, will have to cross a generation gap and negative emotions against the war, which he has supported and has not promised to bring troops home right away the way Obama did right away.

Bringing the troops home right away is, in my opinion, terrible foreign policy and will open the floodgates for extremists to make Iraq their home state, but emotional negativity about the war - whether we should even be in the war - will not worry about the long term future.  Just the short term past.

Frankly, I think it is a toss up, at this point.  We'll see.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDcvdm90aW5nLW9uZXMtY29udmljdGlvbnMvI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNjQ=">July 11, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2llbWlzc2lvbmFsLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Marty Duren</a> writes: I'm writing in for CB Scott.

Marty Durens last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2llbWlzc2lvbmFsLmNvbS8yMDA4LzA2LzI5L3Rha2luZy1hLWJyZWFrLw==" rel=\"nofollow\">Taking a Break</a></li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDgvMDkvbm92YS1zY290aWEtbWF5b3ItcmVmdXNlcy10by1mbHktZ2F5LWZsYWctYmVjYXVzZS1vZi1jaHJpc3RpYW4tYmVsaWVmcy8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Nova Scotia Mayor Refuses to Fly Gay Flag Because of Christian Beliefs\">Nova Scotia Mayor Refuses to Fly Gay Flag Because of Christian Beliefs</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDQvMTkvc2JjLXByaW1lci12b3RpbmctcXVvcnVtcy8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: SBC Primer - Voting &amp; Quorums\">SBC Primer - Voting &amp; Quorums</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDYvMTMvbm9taW5hdGlvbnMv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Nominations\">Nominations</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDYvMDUvMjIvcHJpbWVyLXJldmlzaXRlZC8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Primer Revisited\">Primer Revisited</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDYvMTAvdGhlLWNvb3BlcmF0aXZlLXByb2dyYW1zLWluZmx1ZW5jZS1pbi10aGUtYW5udWFsLW1lZXRpbmcv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: The Cooperative Program&#8217;s Influence in the Annual Meeting\">The Cooperative Program&#8217;s Influence in the Annual Meeting</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=804" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Mac in Black&#124;Phriday foto 07-04-08</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/04/mac-in-blackphriday-foto-07-04-08/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/04/mac-in-blackphriday-foto-07-04-08/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Blogging]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Photoblog]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Phriday fotos]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Tech Stuff]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[picture]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[tech]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, no patriotic pictures of flags, kids or picnics.  Not even fireworks.</p>
<p>Some of you have noted that I was having trouble with my laptop over the last couple of weeks.  Turns out, the motherboard fried.  I took it in to a local Nerd Herd to confirm the suspicions and found out that, as expected, all was without hope.</p>
<p>I had backed up my information on an external hard drive I had purchased for our home, so there was no loss of data.  Just the grind of having to restore everything from a backup.</p>
<p>With the added pain of a whole new system.  <img src='http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Yep.  I&#8217;ve done it.  I went over to the &#8220;dark side.&#8221;</p>
<p><a title=\"Glowing Apple\" rel=\"lightbox[pics806]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA3L2dsb3dpbmctYXBwbGUuanBn"  rel=\"lightbox-806\"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-807" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/glowing-apple.jpg" alt="Glowing Apple" width="297" height="197" /></a>Yours truly is now sporting a brand new Macbook Black.  No, not the Pro Series laptops, but I&#8217;m happy with the one I have.  I know some are getting those high end laptops, but I have no idea how they have the money for it.  Here&#8217;s a picture of the glowing white Apple on the back in the darkness of my home office as I take a break from working on my sermon.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t completely grasped the organizational structure, but they tell me it makes more sense when you do &#8220;get it.&#8221;  I pray I &#8220;get it&#8221; soon.</p>
<p>I will say, though, that it is fast.  Much faster than my old XP machine and light years ahead of my wife&#8217;s Vista machine.  Yikes.  That looks like a complete waste of money now.  She waits and waits for it to do ANYTHING, but this Macbook just flies through whatever you tell it to do.</p>
<p>Also, shutting down and booting up is AWESOME.  It&#8217;s almost NO TIME!</p>
<p>I still have to convert my iPod over to mac sync now.  I have no idea how well that will go, but I hope it goes as easily and quickly as importing all of my music from the external hard drive into iTunes.  Drag, drop and wait 20 mins to convert tons of audio, video and everything else.  Done.</p>
<p>Oh.  And it is light.  It&#8217;s not the &#8220;<a title=\"Macbook Air\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hcHBsZS5jb20vbWFjYm9va2Fpci8=" target=\"_blank\">Macbook Air</a>,&#8221; but it is probably half the weight of my former laptop.</p>
<p>Finally, thanks to the advice of David Phillips, we got the extended warranty, which takes the 1 yr hardware and 90 phone support to 3 years each.  David said that you should always do this with a laptop, because the manufacturers don&#8217;t allow you to simply buy and replace broken parts.  If you break something, particularly something important, you have to send it in.  Pretty soon, it is cheaper to simply buy a new computer.</p>
<p>Of course, that is how we got to where we are now, so we learned our lesson.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve set up Firefox already and imported all my bookmarks with the <a title=\"Firefox Add On: Foxmarks\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cHM6Ly9hZGRvbnMubW96aWxsYS5vcmcvZW4tVVMvZmlyZWZveC9hZGRvbi8yNDEw" target=\"_blank\">Foxmarks Add-On</a>.  It syncs your bookmarks, personal structure and all, to the net and allows you to log on and bring them to another computer using Firefox.</p>
<p>Final thing:  The whole &#8220;it just works&#8221; thing that mac users always throw around to pc users when their stuff is grinding and glitching&#8230;  they don&#8217;t seem to be lying.</p>
<p>There you have it, boys and girls.  Another one goes over&#8230;</p>
<p>As for the foto, I know it&#8217;s not much, but it is my first effort with the mac and using iPhoto with my Canon DSLR.  I like the program.  It looks promising.  I&#8217;ll reserve judgement to see if it is as good as Adobe Lightroom, which is what I have been using.</p>
<p>You can check out my pre-Mac pics at the ol&#8217; <a title=\"12 Witnesses Photoblog\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3Bob3RvYmxvZy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29t" target=\"_blank\">photoblog</a>.</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQz">July 4, 2008</a>, Robert Dando writes: and now you know that with deeper rooted conviction that the most passionate Baptist Identity folk, us Mac users know - we are right!

Rob - UK [Mac user too :) - oh and Baptist pastor as a sideline :) ]

oh - and happy colonies day !</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ0">July 4, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2llbWlzc2lvbmFsLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Marty Duren</a> writes: "Welcome, Anakin."

Marty Durens last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2llbWlzc2lvbmFsLmNvbS8yMDA4LzA2LzI5L3Rha2luZy1hLWJyZWFrLw==" rel=\"nofollow\">Taking a Break</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ1">July 4, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Rob - I love the English sense of humor.  Thanks. :)

Marty, if I'm Anakin...</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ2">July 4, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5rZXZpbmJ1c3NleS5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>Kevin Bussey</a> writes: Welcome,

You know what they say..."Once you go Mac, you'll never go back!"

I love mine

Kevin Busseys last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2ZlZWRzLmZlZWRidXJuZXIuY29tL35yL0NvbmZlc3Npb25zT2ZBUmVjb3ZlcmluZ1BoYXJpc2VlL34zLzMyNjQ5ODM0NC8=" rel=\"nofollow\">What would Jesus fly?</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ3">July 4, 2008</a>, Bart Rhea writes: Anakin?</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ4">July 4, 2008</a>, Bart Rhea writes: Skywalker or Solo?</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjQ5">July 4, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2Jsb2cud29yZHNhcmVub3Rlbm91Z2guY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Joe Kennedy</a> writes: Declare your independence from Microsoft, Art.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDQvbWFjLWluLWJsYWNrcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA3LTA0LTA4LyNjb21tZW50LTE1MjUw">July 4, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2hpcG9waW5pb24uY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Hip Opinion</a> writes: I'll never go Mac... Never, never, never :)

Unless somebody buys me one for my birthday LOL

Hip Opinions last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2hpcG9waW5pb24uY29tLz9wPTUz" rel=\"nofollow\">What’s the difference between AA and church?</a></li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDQvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA0LTExLTA4Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 04-11-08\">Phriday foto 04-11-08</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDUvMTEvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTUtMTEtMDcv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 5-11-07\">Phriday foto 5-11-07</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDYvMDgvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA2LTA4LTA3Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 06-08-07\">Phriday foto 06-08-07</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDEvMDQvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTAxLTA0LTA4Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 01-04-08\">Phriday foto 01-04-08</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDQvMjUvcGhyaWRheS1mb3RvLTA0LTI1LTA4Lw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Phriday foto 04-25-08\">Phriday foto 04-25-08</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=806" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<title>Why We Believe Children Who Die Go to Heaven</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/03/why-we-believe-children-who-die-go-to-heaven/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/07/03/why-we-believe-children-who-die-go-to-heaven/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 05:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[culture]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[ministry]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Theology]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>It is one of the hardest things to explain.  Especially to grieving families.  Can you assure them their child is in Heaven.  I have always attempted to do so, though I often admitted that my Scriptural validation for my belief was more or less founded in the goodness of God and His mercy.</p>
<p>The alternative is the cobbled together and poorly thought out, completely un-Scriptural &#8220;doctrines&#8221; such as the &#8220;age of accountability.&#8221;</p>
<p>Recently, Drs. Danny Akin and Al Mohler, Seminary Presidents of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, respectively, have produced a series of concise arguments from Scripture to lend a sense of affirmation to the belief that infants that die go to Heaven.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2JldHdlZW50aGV0aW1lcy5jb20vMjAwOC8wNi8yNC93aHktd2UtYmVsaWV2ZS1jaGlsZHJlbi13aG8tZGllLWdvLXRvLWhlYXZlbi8=">Between The Times|Why We Believe Children Who Die Go to Heaven</a></p>
<p>While some of the arguments edge quite close to the &#8220;age of accountability&#8221; thought process, though not crossing the line, some are better.  Such as David&#8217;s sense of confidence in seeing his lost infant son again, and the vast multitudes of saints in Heaven that appear to possibly outnumber those that have lived to adulthood in service to the Lord.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve ever struggled with the loss of a child, this article should bring some sense of comfort to you.</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDMvd2h5LXdlLWJlbGlldmUtY2hpbGRyZW4td2hvLWRpZS1nby10by1oZWF2ZW4vI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNDI=">July 3, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL21pZ2h0eWZvd2wuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29t" rel='external nofollow'>Bob Cleveland</a> writes: Two things about this topic have really held my interest lately. One is that nobody ever seems to refer to Isaiah 7 in the discussion. We all know 7:14, but the following two verses, twice, refer to a time when Jesus Himself did not yet know enough to "reject the wrong and choose the right". I think that's a little clue there that this God-Man didn't, at one time, know right from wrong. I can think of no other reason for those statements in the Word, than if He wasn't expected to, neither could mere mortals.

Second is that I'd really rather trust God, than my own ability to assemble enough "facts" to soothe myself about any particular issue. If God isn't the God of love He says He is, and has shown Himself to be, then there isn't much hope for anybody. Young or old. (Last statements are, of course, absent any scripture dealing explicitly with the issue.)

Bob Clevelands last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL21pZ2h0eWZvd2wuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvaS1nb3QteW91ci1mbGlwLXJpZ2h0LWhlcmUtcGFsLmh0bWw=" rel=\"nofollow\">I Got Your &quot;Flip&quot; Right Here, Pal......</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDMvd2h5LXdlLWJlbGlldmUtY2hpbGRyZW4td2hvLWRpZS1nby10by1oZWF2ZW4vI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNTE=">July 5, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL2RhdmVzdHVmZi51cw==" rel='external nofollow'>Hip Opinion</a> writes: To go further... What if you have a child that has severe  mental illness... He knows (seems) right from wrong. Yet his illness cause him to do bad things... And he is certainly past the "age of accountability" by a long shot...

He hears voices. 
Get's violent.
Acts out sexually.

He was baptized but I suspect he doesn't know what that means...

And then suddenly a car crash.
Is he in heaven or hell?</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDcvMDMvd2h5LXdlLWJlbGlldmUtY2hpbGRyZW4td2hvLWRpZS1nby10by1oZWF2ZW4vI2NvbW1lbnQtMTUyNjM=">July 8, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Dave, (HO)

First, I'll give you a dollar for every time you find the "age of accountability" in Scripture.  It ain't there.

Second, to answer your question, I believe there is a valid argument to be made that he or she is in Heaven, which is the point of this post and the article that I referenced.</li></ul><hr /><h2>Related posts:</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMDUvZnVuZXJhbC10b2RheS1mb3ItYS12ZXRlcmFuLWFuZC1hLWZyaWVuZC8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Funeral Today for a Veteran and a Friend\">Funeral Today for a Veteran and a Friend</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDUvMTAvMTMvaWRvbGF0cnkv" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Idolatry?\">Idolatry?</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDQvMjMvbGVhdmluZy1jaHVyY2gtcHQtMS8=" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Leaving Church, pt 1.\">Leaving Church, pt 1.</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDcvMDQvMDgvcmlzZW4v" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Risen\">Risen</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDMvMjYvc2ltcGxlLXRoaW5ncy1sZWFybmVkLw==" rel=\"bookmark\" title=\"Permanent Link: Simple Things Learned\">Simple Things Learned</a></li></ul><hr /><small>Copyright &copy; Art Rogers|12 Witnesses 2008<br /> This feed is for personal, non-commercial use only. <br /> The use of this feed on other websites breaches copyright. If this content is not in your news reader, it makes the page you are viewing an infringement of the copyright. If you suspect copyright infringement, please contact legal@twelvewitnesses.com.  Thanks.  (Digital Fingerprint:<br /> 4fb9806df94a8f093ce1b84a21d62535 (38.103.63.18) )</small> <img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?view=1&post_id=801" width="1" height="1" style="display: none;" />
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		<item>
		<title>Exegeting Trends</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/06/30/exegeting-trends/</link>
		<comments>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2008/06/30/exegeting-trends/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		
		<category><![CDATA[Church]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[General Christian]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[Missional]]></category>

		<category><![CDATA[culture]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=802</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p><a title=\"Livestrong\" rel=\"lightbox[pics802]\" href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tL3dwLWNvbnRlbnQvdXBsb2Fkcy8yMDA4LzA2L2xpdmVzdHJvbmcuanBn"  rel=\"lightbox-802\"><img class="alignleft attachment wp-att-803" style="float: left;" src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/livestrong.jpg" alt="Livestrong" width="140" height="93" /></a>How many times have I heard Ed Stetzer and others say that we need to exegete culture?  Many, I assure you.  Let me also assure you that I am not against exegeting culture.  I&#8217;m for it.</p>
<p>But how far?  How much culture can we truly decipher before we are spending all of our time trying to figure out minutiae?  What about culture that moves quickly?  Too much time studying a trend and it is out of style before you can apply anything relevant.</p>
<p>Best example:  When I moved from rural Kentucky to Charlotte, NC (still in Youth Ministry) I went up to some of my older guys and said, &#8220;What up, dog?&#8221;  They burst out laughing and one of them literally took me by the shoulders and said:  &#8220;Never again.  Ok?  Never again.&#8221;</p>
<p>Relevant in Kentucky, way past relevant in Charlotte.  A little trend that I had failed to grasp well had done much to convince my teenagers that, while I loved them, I knew little of their world.</p>
<p>And then there is the whole postmodern aspect to trends.  What they mean to you, what they were originally intended to mean, is not what they mean to many who are participants in them.</p>
<p>I remember when the Lance Armstrong LiveStrong yellow armbands came out.  I had a teenaged girl in my Youth Group who showed up one Wednesday night wearing one.  Thinking that I would find a point of relationship with her, since my family has been rife with cancer, I approached her and asked who she knew that struggled with cancer.</p>
<p>Blink.  Blink.  Dumbfounded look.</p>
<p>&#8220;The LiveStrong bracelet?&#8221;</p>
<p>More blinking.</p>
<p>*sigh*</p>
<p>Foiled again.</p>
<p>So at what level and to what degree do you pay attention to trends?  Enough, but not too much?</p>
<img src="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/eadd809f/26673f12/CCBot/1.0 (+http://www.commoncrawl.org/bot.html).gif" /><hr /><h2>Comments</h2><ul><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMzAvZXhlZ2V0aW5nLXRyZW5kcy8jY29tbWVudC0xNTIyNw==">June 30, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wYXVsbGl0dGxldG9uLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Paul</a> writes: Art,

I'm not sure if you are equating "culture" with "trends" here, but trends are simply a particular expression of a culture.  Culture is broad and general whereas trends are narrow and specific.

For example, a trend can be seen in advertising where everyone is (was) using "New and Improved" in their labeling.  Those trends, however, were simply a reflection of a market-driven consumer culture.  The trends change (as you note in your example of "cool things to say" and "cool things to wear") but those trends reflect something deeper within the culture that <i>didn't</i> change - the drive to be "hip" and "cool."

I think it is pretty pointless to try to exegete trends.  You'll never keep up.  However, try exegeting "cool."  Try exegeting "market-driven consumerism."  Try exegeting "church as we've always done it (in our culture - either our larger culture, or the more specific culture of your own local church).  Those things do not change overnight and that may be where your time is more profitably spent in examination and discernment.</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMzAvZXhlZ2V0aW5nLXRyZW5kcy8jY29tbWVudC0xNTIyOA==">June 30, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3R3ZWx2ZXdpdG5lc3Nlcy5jb20=" rel='external nofollow'>art rogers</a> writes: Paul,

I am not equating trends with culture, but view them exactly the way you do.

You did, however answer my question, which was "To how much minutiae does one apply one's mind to the task of unraveling?"

You answer, as I understand it, is, "Not much.  Nothing rapid.  Only things that change over long periods of time."

Fair enough?</li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMzAvZXhlZ2V0aW5nLXRyZW5kcy8jY29tbWVudC0xNTIyOQ==">June 30, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wYXVsbGl0dGxldG9uLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Paul</a> writes: Art,

Fair enough, though I do think it is important to understand the gradual changes (and sometimes abrupt ones) that come over time.

Yesterday I mentioned to our folks how certain events in American life have shaped who we believe ourselves to be as Americans and people - events like the Boston Tea Party, the Revolutionary war, the Civil War and the two World Wars.  But notice how that understanding changed after Korea (the first war America fought without an entirely positive outcome) and especially Vietnam (the first war America fought without <i>any</i> positive outcome - from the standpoint of an American victory).  Then think about how those Vietnam vets were treated when they came home.  We no longer proceed as we once did.  Even those who are adamantly opposed to our involvement in Iraq continue to "support the troops."

In addition, over the last century America made a shift from being a world producer to a world consumer.  Thinking has shifted from the modern to the postmodern.  Science is losing ground as the "foundation of knowledge" and being replaced with "spirituality" and "mystery."

These things are much more than wrist bands and hip sayings.  They are generally subconscious (we aren't particularly consciously aware of them and their impact) and "given."  In other words, we take them for granted as telling us what life in this world is like.  But they are, by and large, not Biblical, but rather cultural-specific.  The things you and I assume about life, as Americans, are very different from what a Filipino thinks about life and how it "works" (even a Christian Filipino).

Well...I've got more I'd like to say, but I hate it when someone's comment is longer than the original post, so I'll just leave it there for now.

Pauls last blog post..<a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wYXVsbGl0dGxldG9uLmNvbS8yMDA4LzA2L3doeWZvdXIv" rel=\"nofollow\">Whyfour?</a></li><li><a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy50d2VsdmV3aXRuZXNzZXMuY29tLzIwMDgvMDYvMzAvZXhlZ2V0aW5nLXRyZW5kcy8jY29tbWVudC0xNTIzMA==">June 30, 2008</a>, <a href="http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/wp-content/plugins/feed-statistics.php?url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5wYXVsbGl0dGxldG9uLmNvbQ==" rel='external nofollow'>Paul</a> writes: By the way, your pics aren't loading.  I don't know if that is just a problem I'm having or what.

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