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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s like the Welfare system&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/</link>
	<description>Let these stones be a witness to what we have done here this day.</description>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16212</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My kind sarcasm went unnoticed. 

The church has become very program based, to the extent that members take a personal stake in them. It becomes the perception then that 20 percent is doing all the work. In the best scenario the precentage engaging the lost community is probably less. We are reluctant, scared, or stuck in tradition in regards to being a full time missionary outside the holy walls. Until we engage our members either by example or one on one I don&#039;t see a viable change happening quickly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My kind sarcasm went unnoticed. </p>
<p>The church has become very program based, to the extent that members take a personal stake in them. It becomes the perception then that 20 percent is doing all the work. In the best scenario the precentage engaging the lost community is probably less. We are reluctant, scared, or stuck in tradition in regards to being a full time missionary outside the holy walls. Until we engage our members either by example or one on one I don&#8217;t see a viable change happening quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: art rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16211</link>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/?p=1822#comment-16211</guid>
		<description>Sorry, that&#039;s not true.  We are engaging.

We are not engaging much and not many of us are engaging.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, that&#8217;s not true.  We are engaging.</p>
<p>We are not engaging much and not many of us are engaging.</p>
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		<title>By: art rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16210</link>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark,

Much as I love Bart, I think you missed it in a couple of places.

First, this is about the evangepublicans and our hypocrisy, not about actual welfare recipients.  I turn the political arguments against welfare back on us because the things we decry there we embrace in the church.

Second,and this was pointed out by our Worship Pastor, David, your observation that church members don&#039;t work because they don&#039;t see it as valuable supposes that they are actively pursuing Kingdom work and can&#039;t find it in what we offer.

If that were true, then they would find it elsewhere if they don&#039;t find it in us, but they don&#039;t.

We have created a culture of non-engagement.  We aren&#039;t engaging anywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Much as I love Bart, I think you missed it in a couple of places.</p>
<p>First, this is about the evangepublicans and our hypocrisy, not about actual welfare recipients.  I turn the political arguments against welfare back on us because the things we decry there we embrace in the church.</p>
<p>Second,and this was pointed out by our Worship Pastor, David, your observation that church members don&#8217;t work because they don&#8217;t see it as valuable supposes that they are actively pursuing Kingdom work and can&#8217;t find it in what we offer.</p>
<p>If that were true, then they would find it elsewhere if they don&#8217;t find it in us, but they don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>We have created a culture of non-engagement.  We aren&#8217;t engaging anywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16209</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark you nailed it. &quot;Most&quot; welfare clients you dealt with worked. &quot;Most&quot; church folks work too, but it is usually the 80-20 rule. Then they wear out, fall out, and get out. Programs do benefit those who consider it their ministry. Does it benefit the lost community?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark you nailed it. &#8220;Most&#8221; welfare clients you dealt with worked. &#8220;Most&#8221; church folks work too, but it is usually the 80-20 rule. Then they wear out, fall out, and get out. Programs do benefit those who consider it their ministry. Does it benefit the lost community?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Gstohl</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Gstohl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s also like welfare because...

I&#039;ve worked with a couple of hundred clients on welfare. The reality is that most of them DO work, but the jobs they are qualified for (due to a very poor education) can&#039;t fully support them. Writing welfare recipients off as lazy may help our consciences, but it&#039;s simply not true in most cases.

Church folks work too! Many times, their work is actually a ministry. Because many Southern Baptists have limited ministry to evangelism, all that good work we do to help others doesn&#039;t really seem to count as &quot;real&quot; ministry. What a shame. Too many times, persons are asked to do church work that really isn&#039;t about evangelism or helping people either. That&#039;s why many won&#039;t do it. They see it as a waste of time and in many cases it is.

My two cents...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also like welfare because&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve worked with a couple of hundred clients on welfare. The reality is that most of them DO work, but the jobs they are qualified for (due to a very poor education) can&#8217;t fully support them. Writing welfare recipients off as lazy may help our consciences, but it&#8217;s simply not true in most cases.</p>
<p>Church folks work too! Many times, their work is actually a ministry. Because many Southern Baptists have limited ministry to evangelism, all that good work we do to help others doesn&#8217;t really seem to count as &#8220;real&#8221; ministry. What a shame. Too many times, persons are asked to do church work that really isn&#8217;t about evangelism or helping people either. That&#8217;s why many won&#8217;t do it. They see it as a waste of time and in many cases it is.</p>
<p>My two cents&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: art rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16207</link>
		<dc:creator>art rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Joe.  And thanks for the FB note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Joe.  And thanks for the FB note.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2009/09/28/its-like-the-welfare-system/#comment-16206</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Art, with too many posts like this, you&#039;re going to get run out of the SBC. =) Well said, man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art, with too many posts like this, you&#8217;re going to get run out of the SBC. =) Well said, man.</p>
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