I wonder if you consider it to be “Scriptural baptism” if the person, say an 8 year old, shows complete and proficient understanding of salvation by faith in the substitutionary atonement made possible in Jesus and this same 8 year old convinces you that he/she has put his/her personal faith in that atonement…
BUT, years later they confess they didn’t understand the need to be baptized and did it because they felt pressured to do so, though they understand baptism now.
What do you think? Was it legitimate? Do they need to do it again?
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Bart
on Nov 25th, 2008
@ 3:02 pm:
I have known some that felt led to be baptized (or is it baptised?) again. One felt he wasn’t saved, another his life never changed, and another never made God their personal Lord.
I have questioned my own baptism at different points of my life, but I always attributed it to Satan casting doubts. I always fall back on feeling the Holy Spirit convicting me (even though I did not always listen and act) and remembering when and where I was at.
So…all that to say, it is up to the Holy Spirit’s conviction with the individual.
art rogers
on Nov 25th, 2008
@ 5:10 pm:
“z” is right. I think they might use the “s” in England.
As far as the Holy Spirit convicting the individual, I agree, so far as their conscience is concerned.
Part of the requirement for membership in a baptist church is that they be “Scripturally baptized,” so there is some responsibility on the church to investigate and authenticate.
So the question is, does the church think that someone who is “saved” but doesn’t understand baptism when they are baptized have been baptized “appropriately?”
Just asking…
Bart
on Nov 25th, 2008
@ 10:27 pm:
From The Baptist Faith and Message:
Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water. …It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer’s faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer’s death to sin, the burial of the life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus.
I think the key word in your original comment was “pressured”. Pressure due to fear of water or as part of their salvation? A hoop to jump through as part of salvation? Or to get you a roll number?
I didn’t understand everything about being a Christian either…still don’t…but I know more today than I did yesterday. So would not knowing about baptism fully apply to salvation also?
I don’t understand the full mystery of my HOLY, and AWESOME GOD but by faith I accept Him and His love for me. So a simple act of publicly showing my love for Him through baptism isn’t a pressured act.
If we (and we do) require baptism to become a member of our congregation and that was the reason for pressuring an eight year old, heaven help us.
Nick
on Nov 25th, 2008
@ 10:34 pm:
I guess I don’t know anymore. Ask the IMB.
:-/
Alan Stoddard
on Nov 25th, 2008
@ 11:28 pm:
This is a catch 22 question that many are facing these days.
I don’t think Satan would try to make a believer doubt his or her salvation and baptism. Why would he do that when he could just let a person go to hell? The devil is going to help a person get right with God? I don’t think so, but hey…..
I think it’s possible for an 8 year old to later sense a need to own his or her faith. As to salvation, well that’s up to the Lord and testimony of the Holy Spirit. I would encourage a person to be baptized again if there is doubt. But I tell him or her to not do it again. I say, “This is it; you’re nailing it down this time.”
I think there’s a lot of believers our there who rededicated, but need to get baptism on the right side of the salvation experience. Many were converted when they rededicated. A look at the Spirit’s presense in their lives (the Acts standard) is the proof of salvation.
I made a commitment at 11 only to rededicate at 24. Was baptized at 39 years old as a pastor.
Alan Stoddards last blog post..Thankful for….
Bart
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 7:36 am:
Allan good thought on Satan not causing the doubt.
Are you saying then that God doesn’t allow Satan to test, try, and tempt us?
art rogers
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 10:00 am:
Ok, I need to redirect here.
I tried to spell it out before, but was apparently not successful.
Salvation is a given in this situation. No one questions salvation – neither the candidate nor the pastor who interviewed the candidate at the time of his/her profession.
The only thing the candidate didn’t understand at the time is BAPTISM.
A few years later he/she does and realizes that they didn’t when they were baptized.
I guess you could say that they had a minimal understanding that this was an act of obedience and on some basic level they did as they were led to do.
Is FULLY understanding the reason for being baptized necessary for a “legitimate” baptism?
art rogerss last blog post..Does baptism count if…
art rogers
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 10:04 am:
…and Alan, good to see your face again. I hope you are well. Tell everyone at Cornerstone hello for me.
For those reading, Cornerstone may be the most gracious and servant hearted churches in the world… though we are making a run at that at Skelly. :)
art rogerss last blog post..Does baptism count if…
Bart
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 10:27 am:
Ok…salvation isn’t the issue, but illegal baptism is.
Bart
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 10:29 am:
Was the water temperature to cold? Did the waders leak? Lots of variables to consider…;-)
Rick Boyne
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 10:53 am:
Art,
Excellent question! I think that COMPLETE understanding is taking it a little too far. If that is the case, perhaps NONE of use should have been baptized.
I certainly understand it better now than I did when I was baptized at 8 years old!
To answer your question, “Is FULLY understanding the reason for being baptized necessary for a “legitimate” baptism?” I would say the answer is “no”.
Rick Boynes last blog post..Please Fell Free to Contact
art rogers
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 2:59 pm:
Bart,using the term “illegal baptism” is more telling – and accurate in describing certain attitudes – than you may know.
Rick, if not fully, then what is the minimum?
Rick Boyne
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 3:39 pm:
Art,
IMHO, I think the minimum is simply a desire to follow in obedience with the understanding that it isn’t what saves you.
I, as I’m sure you do as well, use every baptism as a time of instruction/teaching for all those in attendance. The Ethiopian eunuch only knew that he needed to be baptized. There wasn’t a great deal of dialogue/instruction recorded for us to follow…
Rick Boynes last blog post..Please Fell Free to Contact
Bob Cleveland
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 11:34 pm:
I think if the kid knew he was saved, and he got baptized back then because He knew Christians were supposed to be baptized, then I’m thinking that’s as valid as anything. Hopefully, he’ll learn new things about baptism all his life, but his obedience wasn’t to the perfection of his eventual understanding, but rather to the simple command to BE baptized.
Whether a pastor ought to re-baptize someone in that position is a pastoral concern, and above my pay grade.
Bob Clevelands last blog post..Church (1 a.m., Russian Apartment Variety)
cb scott
on Nov 26th, 2008
@ 11:52 pm:
Art,
Within the last month a young lady came to me. She stated she knew she was a Believer. She did not doubt that. She said she had not understood Baptism when a pastor baptized her.
She then stated she now understood Baptism since we had been talking about the meaning of Baptism for a while here.
She asked to be baptized due to her new understanding. She wanted some of her family to see it. She wanted me to speak to why we baptize people prior to her being baptized.
We did it. We baptized her during a morning worship service. I spoke to the meaning of Baptism as I always do when we baptize believers. Her family was present. They heard the gospel. The saw the symbolism. Some of her friends did also. It meant something to the young lady. It was a witness to her family and friends. It was a blessing to our fellowship. She has brought other people to worship with us. We have added eight new people since her Baptism.
The young lady has never doubted her salvation. Her life-style has been that of a Believer the whole time I have known her. The thing for her was she had not been taught what Baptism is until now. I went ahead and baptized her upon her request. I have baptized a bunch of other people since coming here. Hers has been the most “significant” thus far of all of them.
If I was wrong to baptize her I trust I erred on the side of benevolence and grace. And I guess I will stand by it. I know I have certainly stood by worse decisions.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
art rogers
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 11:12 am:
So, if the candidate senses the need, then baptize, but if not the church should leave them alone?
Is that what we are saying?
cb scott
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 11:21 am:
What else would be a proper and honorable motivation?
If I try to convince people to be baptized again; what is my motivation? Is it to get my Baptism numbers up? If so that is not pastoral ministry to my assigned flock is it? If I am not pastoral in my motivation then I fail to fulfill my mandate from Christ do I not?
If a person seeks to be baptized because of a true conviction; do I reject them so I can appear to be “theologically sound” to my peers in ministry? I think not.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
Gary
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 12:23 pm:
My question is:
Baptism count as what? You posed the question does it count. I ask you as what?
art rogers
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 9:44 pm:
CB,
Can there be no other motivation for seeking to rebaptize?
Gary,
I assume you are trying to be funny, but just in case… “Does it count” as “Scriptural baptism,” which is required for membership in most Baptist churches. In fact, most Baptists would say that if you are allowing members who are not “Scripturally baptized” then you aren’t really baptist, no matter what you call yourself.
cb scott
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 10:40 pm:
So, Art,
In the actual case study I gave you to answer your question do you think I acted properly?
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
art rogers
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 10:45 pm:
Of course, but that wasn’t the point of my question. You only leave one option for desiring to rebaptize the candidate – unhealthy selfish motives.
I’m asking if there is a healthy reason to encourage someone to be baptized again, if they didn’t understand it when they did it even though they were confident of their faith in Christ.
cb scott
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 11:23 pm:
Art,
I answered according to my experience. Ans in that situation I had to have a proper motivation. I did. Any other motivation would not have been proper.
I am sure that there are other cases which would constitute a proper motive to rebaptize. I was just sharing mine. I think it fit a similar situation as was your example.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
art rogers
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 11:26 pm:
It did fit, and I thought it fit well.
I’m asking if there is a different situation that would allow you to encourage a member to be rebaptized if they were sure of their salvation when they were baptized?
cb scott
on Nov 27th, 2008
@ 11:52 pm:
Art,
I am sure there are. I am also sure those reasons might be numerous due to the various stages of maturity in Believers.
I think this is directly related to the process of sanctification.
A person grows in the faith. Her learning of truth brings her to a place wherein she realizes, for what ever reason, she did not have a biblical understanding of her Baptism. Therefore she request to be baptized. I ask, why not?
The only reason I can see is if I am motivated only by a desire to increase my baptismal numbers.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
Bart
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 9:04 am:
Several years ago I was involved with starting a new church under the Evangelical Free Church of America. The only difference between EFREE and Baptist was the baptism requirement to join. We had several join our group that were believers under different denominations. We never asked if they wanted to be baptized again. No one asked us to baptise either. The only baptisms we did were ones that came to know the Lord.
Do you think the baptism requirement hinders reaching unchurched, dechurched, and the lost? I do.
art rogers
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 10:59 am:
CB,
Ok, so what you are saying is that there is no wholesome motivation from the pastoral perspective other than to assist the inclination of the church member. Right?
So, whether or not their baptism is valid is dependent on whether or not THEY believe it is valid. The pastor has no legitimate position to question it in this circumstance.
Bart,
Ok, you’ve asked me the question so I’ll quit asking everyone else and answer.
Like CB, I think that a LOT of the finickiness that baptist churches have shown over the years is really a secret desire to add to their counted numbers. Yes, that hurts our ability to reach the de-churched and I am also sure that if that is our attitude it will bleed into other areas, hurting our ability to reached the un-churched/un-reached. They sniff out ulterior motives easily, because they are already skeptical of what we are saying or doing.
The hardliners among us would argue that they are seeking to remain Scriptural in the administration of their local church. So far as they are sincerely motivated in this way, I think they can probe a little with an honest explanation and most people will tolerate it. They won’t tolerate legalistic, cookie cutter attitudes that require them to be what they consider unreasonable.
I’ve known many people – MANY people – who’ve essentially become a part of the church where I was, but would not join over this issue. Most of the time, they never even talked to the pastor about it. They had heard that baptists make you get baptized again if you weren’t baptized in a baptist church and they felt they already had a valid baptism.
In fact, we have a couple right now that are in that very situation in our church. Members have told me that they have encouraged them to join, but they won’t even discuss it because any discussion of their baptism makes them feel that “we” think it might be invalid and they are confident that it isn’t.
So they remain separated from the church they attend faithfully.
Or do they?
Do we really do anything by having them remain as members of the Sunday School, but not the church? Don’t they call our church “their church?” Most people in the church assume they are members already. I did for a long time, until this was brought to my attention.
Exactly how have we helped them spiritually?
cb scott
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 12:46 pm:
Art,
I am saying we are to minister to people. We both understand scriptural Baptism. We also know we would both be hypocrites if we just made a rule “across the board” that every person who comes to us for membership from another fellowship that was not exactly like ours be baptized again.
Every person is an individual. They are all different. Now, all people come to Christ the exact same way. He calls them. He saves them. You and I are to minister to them. Some of them will come to a conclusion they want to be baptized again. Those reasons may be because in their journey of sanctification they realize they did not understand what Baptism actually meant. And 9 out of 10 times that is the fault of some lazy pastor.
Therefore when people come to me and say they have a specific reason for seeking to experience Baptism again; I work through it with them. If there is no failure to understand Baptism as it relates to salvation, I have no problem in baptizing them.
I do not think it proper for a pastor to manipulate people to be baptized for his own purposes. I think we should baptize for the right reason or not at all.
I also think we should evangelize for the right reasons or not at all, but that is not the subject of this post.
Bottom line: We are called of God to be shepherds to people. We are to do that according to Scripture and Scripture alone. If we are motivated by anything else then we have “become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal” or cowards and hirelings and there is not biblical love nor ministry in that. A lot of the stuff we see and hear around us is nothing more than rude behavior toward God and the very people he has called us to shepherd.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
Bart
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 3:46 pm:
Faithful church attenders vs. faithful church members…If the attenders are faithful in every aspect of their Christian life I wouldn’t pressure them to be baptized to become a “church” member. But if they in good conscience believe they were baptized differently (contrary to immersion or like faith) are they not already a member of the Kingdom Church?
cb scott
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 4:47 pm:
What is a Kingdom church?
Art, I am sorry. I just had to ask.
So long, Pal. I will leave it here. I don’t want to start a theological war here on your good post. It did have purpose and the question was of value.
You have a good Christmas season. Maybe I’ll see you in January.
cb
cb scotts last blog post..A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER
art rogers
on Nov 28th, 2008
@ 6:53 pm:
I think Bart is asking a valid question, though he hasn’t played the blog war games that we used to play.
Aren’t they a part of the Kingdom? THE Church? The body of Christ?
The point that I was making and Bart (who is a church member at Skelly Drive) seemed to be echoing, is that if you are legalistic about membership, have you really done anything?
I think not.