Author: art rogers
Church Staffing: Education v. Experience
Thursday, May 22nd, 2008 @ 12:01 am
We had quite a bit of traffic on the first Church Staffing post this week and a few comments. In fact, that post is still dragging lurkers at a pretty decent clip, so it must have hit a nerve, or at least been moderately interesting.
So the last one was primarily about part and full time staff. How about another balancing act?
Which do you value more? Education or experience?
Do you qualify education? Seminary over Bible College? PhD v DMin v MDiv v MDivBL? Do you check grades?
Do you value one Seminary over another? Why?
How does experience factor in? It can’t mean nothing, so what does it mean? Does mega church intern beat small church Chief?
I know guys who, during Seminary, took tiny churches in the boondocks because they wanted the title “Senior Pastor” on their resume, while I volunteered as a Youth Worker and Sunday School teacher at a local church. Know what? It worked. They got taken more seriously by a lot of search committees and went to larger churches than I did. Which is fine, because I went where I needed to go and served that church for almost ten years.
I’ll also add this controversial thought: Most PhD’s I know have been decent profs (not all), but I’ve rarely known a PhD that made good preachers or pastors. Settle down, I’m not saying all academics are too in their head to pastor, but anecdotally, I’ve seen academics thrive best in academia.
So, where’s the balance?
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May 22nd, 2008 at 5:31 am
This is an interesting question. Something I have noticed with recent seminary graduates is a tendency to believe they know everything. I see a great deal of arrogance in them, especially those without experience. I realize this is a generalization, but I’ve seen it in grads from a couple of different seminaries. There are several grads I have commented to my wife about and told her, “They need to get beaten up some by a church.”
At this point in my life, due to the fact that we see much greater value for raising up indigenous leadership and because of what I’ve seen out of seminary grads, I would take someone with a learners heart, over a recent seminary grad with no experience. My next option is someone who is has experience but no theological education. Finally a seminary graduate.
The church can educate them theologically and even practically. In addition, there are enough schools now offering online degrees (MA’s of course, not MDIVS) that they can work on your field and be educated online. I would even prefer that, because they are able to apply the education they are getting to their current context; it becomes inherently practical for them immediately, plus you can shape what they are learning instead of it all being theory.
May 22nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
Art,
I have a BS, MA, and M.Div. That being said none of those make me an effective minister. I think education is overrated. Now I still want to get my D.Min not to put Dr. by my name but because I’m a learner. But there are people are are learners who don’t have a lot of degrees. You want to hire someone with a heart for God and people.
May 22nd, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Personally, I value calling (and evidence of it) more than either education or experience. After over 20 years in ministry–in a variety of positions both bi-vo and full-time, I find that my education was a good step, but shouldn’t be necessary.
I’ve also discovered that there are certain churches, when looking for staff, paint a picture of the new minister that even those who fit the bill can’t live up to. For instance, some churches miss out on the perfect minister for them because they build the fence around titles and won’t even consider someone who can’t legitimately claim Dr. academically (whether PhD, DMin, or ThD). Others have decided that the next pastor they call should have at least five years experience in (get this) a church the same size or larger than the searching church.
This is too long already, so I’ll go on — When looking for new staff start by asking God who He wants. I seem to recall a story about a prophet looking for a king to anoint, and the one with the most education and experience didn’t even get first muster.
Benjamin Potters last blog post..More from Your Friends at Missional Press
May 22nd, 2008 at 8:42 pm
C’mon, Benjamin. No fair changing the whole thing into a different question.
Of course calling is primary and other things are important, like finances, personality, skill set, etc.
Part of the way you determine calling is how well someone fits the situation in these areas.
When it comes to education v. experience, how do you evaluate them?
May 22nd, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Since you really want me to respond to the actual question asked . . .
I’ve known people with mountains of education that weren’t able to address the needs of the church–even though they were top of the class. I’ve also known some that had one years of experience fifteen times (kind of like my seven years of piano lessons).
No, no, I feel it coming on. Here comes another question change–what about match? Now there’s something to base a call on.
Bottom line on finances, has to do with the place of the church. My first pastorate was in a church that will always be bi-vocational for several reasons. Would they like to have a pastor with a doctorate and ten years experience in a fast-growing church? Sure. Even so, I think that a church ought to be more interested in the kinds of things that experience can bring to the table than education. (I come from a family of educators, so I do think it’s important, but I’ve learned more on the line than in the classroom.)
Benjamin Potters last blog post..More from Your Friends at Missional Press
May 24th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Benjamin,
Thanks for addressing the question in a little more detail. I am not sure your last “change of topic” was much of a change in topic.
Like you, I have seen both education and experience fail to prepare people for ministry in different ways.
Also, like you, I feel like I have learned much more out of Seminary than in it - in certain areas.
May 26th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Art,
Ok, you’ve goaded me into a response with your Ph.D/pastor comment. I think you are essentially correct. The skill sets required for professional success in the academic world (research, adherence to administrative minutia, passion for writing) generally don’t correspond to those skills necessary for a successful pastorate (however you define it). I’m not sure that your last line (Academics thrive best in academia) will garner much opposition.
I would also submit however that the reverse is also true. Outside of pastoral ministry classes, I can think of only a handful of profs at SWBTS who I would view as successful pastors who stepped back into the academic realm (FB Huey comes to mind). Many of the successful pastors I had as seminary profs were prone to disorganized instruction and essentially conducted class by transitioning from one anecdote to another.
Your post does underscore the rarest gift of all, those seminary profs who had solid experience as full time pastors and then later transitioned into teaching positions. They brought a credibility to the discussion that others lacked.
Tarans last blog post..Tornado
May 27th, 2008 at 12:41 am
Taran,
You said, “I’m not sure that your last line (Academics thrive best in academia) will garner much opposition.”
That all depends on the person reading it. I am sure that the PhD pastors to whom I was referring, men I have known personally - not just by acquaintance - would object. They thought they were/are great pastors.
May 27th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Ok Art, as you know I’m in the process of staff searching right now as well so I’ve thought about this kind of thing often. My thoughts would be this, I am fairly unconcerned about the amount or type of degrees that follow a person’s name. What concerns me, and is often more difficult to quantify, is if a person is a passionate learner. Marty, as you referenced in your next post, is a great example of someone who loves learning and a lack of a formal degree hasn’t kept him from having a superior grasp on ministry from an intellectual perspective. At the same time, you and I both know that seminary is not that hard. If you will simply stick to it, almost anyone can complete and M.Div. A large number of seminary grads I wouldn’t let near my church.
So, as I sit down with staff I’m looking for someone who doesn’t list off what they’ve read in seminary but rather someone who lists off for me their personal reading list which is reflective of a passion to learn. Learners never stop learning. Seminary students, on the other hand, may easily do so.
May 27th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Micah,
You nailed that. I couldn’t agree more.
BTW, if anyone is interested, the “next post” to which Micah refers is Church Staffing: Education v Experience, pt 2
May 27th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Micah, I can’t agree with you more. I’m living proof of sticking with it to get that MDiv. My hope is that I can continue learning and get a better grasp on the best way to live out the ministry to which I was called.
Benj.
Benjamin Potters last blog post..More from Your Friends at Missional Press