>>Sure you can, if you want to construct an argument that bears no resemblance to the real world and depends on what we might call “natural theology.” For the Christian, the argument from “natural theology” and secular ethics, etc. would be ancillary at best. There can be no “moral argument” apart from God and no moral argument apart from Scripture. That’s why Van Til, for example, wrote a treatise on Christian theology as the preface to his magnum opus.

This would not defy church and state separation for the simple reason that it does not unite the state to a particular church. Rather, it demonstrates the fundamental basis for morality itself.

http://www.gcbcbonham.org/

There’s an old saying It’s hard to Soar Like an Eagle, when you are surrounded by Turkeys!!!
In His Name
Wayne Smith

I don’t care to belabor this disagreement. I already feel that you are not listening to what I am saying but are just repeating the same things you have said before with the idea that I am wrong and you are going to argue me into submission.

Not a chance.

I am not about to retract the statement above because it is absolutely true, so far as I am concerned.

Moreover, sexual sin was highlighted in Sodom and Gomorrah, but does Scripture say that it was because of their “sexual sin” that they were judged, or because of the wickedness of their heart? Those who are given over to sin are wicked, regardless of the sin.

Yes they were wicked and yes their wickedness showed itself in their sexual behavior, but it was the wickedness – the hard hearted rebellion, wallowing in short circuited self gratifying worship of themselves – that was judged.

Anyway, Rex, suffice it to say you either don’t understand or don’t agree with my understanding. Either way, I have explained it as much as I care to and would rather move on now.

Thanks.

There was homosexuality throughout the land, and the people of Judah became as depraved as the heathen nations which the Lord drove out to make room for his people. (1 Kings 14:24)

The most often sin named in the Bible is sex-sin and is the main reason God destroyed the world with a flood.

First of all, what is a ‘little white lie’? If you’re feeling tired or bad, and someone ask, “How ya doing?” and you reply OK…that’s a white lie—right?
Where in the Bible does it say a ‘white lie’ is evil and is just as bad as being a homosexual? In fact, where does the Bible say a ‘white lie’ is even bad? I don’t believe you can find it, and therefore I predict you won’t even try to answer.

Scott you changed the ‘white lie’ to lying, but remember this conversation started over the statement: “Homosexuality is no worse a sexual sin than that of a little white lie.” That statement is not true.

I’m not sorry for being ‘narrow-minded’ on the subject, and I feel God has the same attitude. I also believe if Art retracts his statement, he will be a bigger man for doing so.

P.S.
Art made a comment before I could post the above. Thanks to both of you for replying as a lot of people just ignore what I say.

I agree with Scott, no surprise.

So are you taking Dante’s Inferno as Gospel now? Do you believe that there are levels of Hell and punishment that some sinners get that are worse than others? Are Homosexuals now MORE separated from God than your average lost gossip?

I ask only to make the point. I know that you are talking about the punishments meted out in the OT. Nevertheless, I think you are not listening to me.

God hates sin. God hates all sin. We often make ourselves feel better about our own rebellion toward God by saying to ourselves and others: at least I am better than THAT person. In truth, God cannot stomach any rebellion in our lives.

I am not trying to take any sin lightly, which is my frustration here. I am trying to help us all take all sin more seriously.

On top of that, Romans 3 says that Jesus was the PROPITIATION for our sin, “hilasmos” in the Greek, which is to say that on the Cross, He was the substitutionary recipient of all of God’s wrath – for those who believe. Certainly not true for those who are not the recipients of God’s grace, but for those who are, there is no such thing as wrath. I am not saying that God takes the sin of any saint lightly, that He winks at it, or that He ignores it. Rather, He has no punishment to pour out on them.

That may be more of a discussion than we need to have. Just remember that I am elevating all sin to the level of hated and not swept under the rug – not taking any sin lightly.

Man what’s the deal? The point, as I take it, is that all sin separates people from God. You see, we tend to ‘go to seed’ on those big sins of which we are not guilty while neglecting those which are hindering our relationship with God (it’s kinda that log/speck thing). What we need to be mindful of as Christians is not to become myopic crusaders against one issue. Yes, homosexuality is sin, and someone who is lost and a homosexual is no more lost that the unbeliever whose primary vice is lying!

If your parents told you to take the trash out and you forgot, would you be punished as much as if you told your parents “No!”?

I’m glad you’re not minimizing homosexual sin, but can’t you see that saying it is no worse than a white lie is completely disgusting.

I believe the degree that God hates a certain sin is the punishment he gives for that sin.

The average lifespan of homosexuals is shorter than white lie sinners; if you know what I mean.

I have never once advocated such. I’m a Mario Cuamo Democrat who believes in a public morality. Religion and politics should mix, must mix and inevitably will mix. And I wouldn’t ask a politician to privitize their faith.

Politicians must seek to build a consensus among their constitutency. If I’m opposed to the gay pride flag or even same-sex marriage, shouldn’t I construct a pubic policy argument that seeks to make my religious values your morality? Surely, I can express my religious values without using Bible verses as the basis for my policy argument.

President Bush didn’t cite Leviticus and Romans while pushing the Federal Marriage Amendment last term. However, I’m positive Bush didn’t leave his religion at the door either….

Of course, I agree.

Rex,

Are you saying that God doesn’t hate lying?

My point is that those caught up in homosexuality are no more or less separated from God than those caught up in gossip, little white lies, heterosexual sin of whatever stripe or murderers.

All sin separates us from God. Many Christians seem to treat homosexuality as if it is a leprosy of the soul which they are privileged not to suffer, but any sin rots the soul.

I’m not minimizing homosexual sin, I am saying that we don’t have an elevated position from which to speak since we, too, are sinners.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I appreciate someone willing to bring his uncompromised Christian conviction to the public arena. Why does it seem that so many (Aaron, too) want all Christians to check their faith at the door or to at least couch it in more universalistic (Aaron, read ‘pluralistic’ there) terminology?…I mean soon we’d be secularist, seventh day, Jehovah’s Witnesses for Allah!

SOLA GRATIA!