I don’t often simply refer to another blogger’s article. In fact, I rarely do it, nowadays. I have been so pulled in by other things, my reading is more like skimming and most posts aren’t able to draw me in.
Typically, I read Timmy Brister more deeply than most others. His thoughts, even when they haven’t been on the SBC, my primary topic over the last 18 months, are always insightful and thought provoking. I especially enjoy his articles on Photo Fridays where he not only has posted pictures, but has given excellent insight into taking great pictures, managing equipment, etc.
This post is directly on topic with the SBC, however. It resonates with several posts that I have put up calling for leaders to risk what they have in order to do what must be done.
I know that I have put my name on the blacklist for some in the SBC. I know that even those who agree with me would be hard pressed to put me in places of service because I have taken a stand and there is “blood on my hands.” I hate the war language, but it is the language we use. We use it for a reason. It communicates.
Anyway, Timmy talks about young leaders who contact him and talk of leaving the convention. His experience has been much the same as mine. We are not only losing leaders, we are beginning to lose churches.
Alright, enough of me. Read this…
Saving the SBC « Provocations & Pantings
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volfan007
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 11:18 am:
art,
from where i sat at the sbc, i saw young people all around me. and, i’m talking about my age and down. i saw many children and teens around as well. i was tickled to death to see so many young people at the sbc this year. what a blessing!
david
Art Rogers
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 12:07 pm:
David,
I’m glad that your perspective was encouraging to you.
Mine is quite different because I not only hear otherwise, personally and from people like Timmy, but the actual research data suggests that we are losing younger generations, as evidenced by Dr. Rainer in response to my question during the Lifeway report.
Anecdotal references are always skewed by perspectives. Data is data.
Sorry I missed you at the SBC.
Art
volfan007
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:09 pm:
art,
it may be the crowd you are hanging with, because the young people i know dont talk that way. also, if the younger crowd leaves due to us standing on sound doctrine, then let them leave. the bible teaches that one day people will fall away and go towards teachers that just tickle the ears. and, maybe when some of them grow up a little, we’ll see them coming back into the sbc….as they mature and realize and understand some things. when i was a younger man i thought i knew a whole lot more than my momma and daddy, but as i grew older, i began to realize just how much life had taught them. so, give some of those younger ones a few years to grow and mature, and then we’ll see where they stand.
david
Art Rogers
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:20 pm:
David,
I think I am just talking past you. You aren’t picking up what I am putting down.
These are Seminary Students and pastors already here, leaving because of restrictions that are not “sound doctrine” but things that are not abundantly clear in Scripture.
Also, as I said, everyone has perspectives of their own crowd. Data is data.
Art Rogers
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:23 pm:
But, David, I do want to thank you for being a sincere minded example of the exact frame of mind I have been describing for 18 mos.
volfan007
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:33 pm:
art,
you’re welcome. :)
art, i’m picking up what you’re putting down. i just dont agree with you. btw, have you noticed what the methodist and the presbyterians are doing in terms of growth and in terms of having enough pastors to pastor thier churches? the methodist and the presbyterians and some others are dying fast, and they are begging older pastors to come out of retirement in order to have enough pastors, or else they’re getting baptist pastors who cant pastor a baptist church anymore due to divorce and such.
but again, if we hold to sound, true doctrine and decline, then so be it. we have stayed true to our Lord, and it’s up to Him about our growth….is it not? i had rather pastor a church of 100 with sound doctrine and a love for Jesus, than to have a church of 500 that beleives in women pastors and speaks in tongues and barks like dogs in the worship service. you?
david
Art Rogers
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:40 pm:
David,
Who has advocated women pastors, barking like dogs, or even speaking in tongues in the worship service?
That’s a straw man argument. A caricature of the real thing.
Art Rogers
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:42 pm:
Sorry to delay discussion. I have a VBS carnival to get to.
Back at ya later.
cb scott
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 4:45 pm:
Art,
The saving of the SBC (which I do greatly love) is not even a secondary issue. I, frankly, do not even know how or where to rank it anymore. I do know that you guys must: glorify God who has saved you, love and care for the family He has given you, and be faithful to the ministry for which He has called you. In doing these things you will be young leaders. If you fail to do these things, you will just be young, then you will be old, then you will die. You will have led no one. You will have been the leader of nothing. You will have left nothing behind. To finish well is a primary issue. That much I do know…..at least, I know it now.
cb
Lu
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 7:45 pm:
Thank you, Art, for pointing us to that post. Incredible. And filled with hard truth. I see why you pay attention to his words so closely.
It grieves me that you and others feel that you are now disqualified for service because of you have spoken out and actively pursued change. I understand the reason you say it, but I pray that you are proved wrong. We need men and women like you in positions of leadership; people of integrity willing to stand firm in their convictions in the face of incredible opposition yet who have the humility to admit when they are wrong and make course corrections.
The war language is accurate. We are at war. But we have to constantly remember that our enemy isn’t our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Our enemy is satan, who would love nothing better than to keep us wrapped up in our own little worlds and as far away from God’s voice, passion and purposes as possble. And he uses everyone of us at various times to accomplish his goals. We have to remember it’s not the Pattersons or the Burlesons or the fundamentalists or the liberals but the powers and principalities and forces of evil in this world. Man, that is so hard to do sometimes; personalities can get so frustrating. But for the sake of the Kingdom we’ve got to remember they are not the enemy.
David Troublefield
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 8:03 pm:
I’ve been a member of 10 Southern Baptist churches in 2 states; never heard any tongues speaking in any of them or by members of them outside of the building. I’ve run off a few stray dogs lingering near the church house doors over the years, but never had any dog-like barking inside from any members. I think that I read somewhere recently that 1/2 of 1% of all SBC churches might be pastored by a woman–which would equate to about 200 congregations among 43,500 if true.
The decline of the SBC is real, but it’s rate of decline isn’t as bad as either suggested above or feared today by many. I don’t credit that to any conservative resurgence, but to the fact that things weren’t as bad as they were said to be years ago either. SBCers might not know much about church health and growth (nor attend annual meetings of the convention), but they do otherwise possess a good degree of common sense.
Darren
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 9:19 pm:
Dude… as they said in the 90′s you slay me…
:)
Women pastors, people barking like dogs, and then thrown right there in the middle of it “speaking in tongues”
I understand that for a cessationist, speaking in tongues by anyone today would have to be fleshly or demonic. But what when we consider what the Scriptures say in I Cor. 14…
“1 …earnestly desire the spiritual gifts…”
“18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you”
As one who believes in the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, and as one who holds to a continualist position regarding the gifts, I have to tell you bro, it kind of brings me down when my brothers equate speaking in tongues with people barking like dogs, whatever that is.
volfan007
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 11:08 pm:
darren,
first of all, if you love the Lord and believe the Book then i love you in the Lord and thank God for you. just as i do art and marty and others that i dont agree with.
secondly, i dont beleive that biblical tongues is ecstatic utterance. i believe that biblical tongues is someone speaking a known language unknown to the speaker.
thirdly, in some charismatic churches that are out there they are barking like dogs….laughing uncontrollably…cooing like birds…falling out in the floor like in a trance, etc. i have no desire for the sbc to head down that road.
fourthly, women pastors are unbiblical. there are some even now in the sbc who believe that it’s ok for a woman to be a pastor….in direct violation of God’s Word. i’m against that.
fifthly, i hate to bring you down. i’m all for uplifting.
again, i love you and art….i thank God for all the good yall do for the kingdom. God bless you both.
david
Darren
on Jun 16th, 2007
@ 11:29 pm:
David,
Like you, I do love Christ and His Word and while you and I may have some minor disagreements in the interpretation of I Cor. 14,… I can also pray the Lord’s blessings upon you and your day of worship tomorrow with your family.
dc
Marty Duren
on Jun 17th, 2007
@ 2:16 am:
Darren and Art-
Redeem the time; don’t waste it.
volfan007
on Jun 17th, 2007
@ 9:13 am:
marty,
are you saying that it’s a waste of time to talk to me? is that what you’re implying?
thanks marty. God bless you, bro.
david
GeneMBridges
on Jun 17th, 2007
@ 4:57 pm:
have you noticed what the methodist and the presbyterians are doing in terms of growth and in terms of having enough pastors to pastor thier churches?the methodist and the presbyterians and some others are dying fast, and they are begging older pastors to come out of retirement in order to have enough pastors, or else they’re getting baptist pastors who cant pastor a baptist church anymore due to divorce and such.
A. It does not bode well when one cannot capitalize the first word of sentence.
B. I would point out that you’re lumping several groups together. Let’s take the “Presbyterians.” Which Presbyterians, David? The PCUSA, the PCA, OPC, EPC, BPC?
C. Presbyterianism has always suffered from a shortage of pastors. They have always had fewer churches. This is nothing new and is partly a function of their educational system and ordination process, the latter of which makes ours look like a cakewalk. There are real seminary level church history exam questions, for example, on their ordination oral examinations.
D. Hasn’t the PCA finally completed their (overly long and involved) disciplinary process through their court system and labeled NPP/FV heresy? I believe that they have. I believe the OPC is shortly to do the same.
E. The OPC’s growth has accelerated in recent years, and hasn’t the PCA grown quite rapidly in recent years? They have nearly 400,000 members now. That’s not bad for a denomination that was started in December of 1973. In fact, I gather that many of their new people are coming from SBC churches, not because they are buying into paedobaptism, but because they are sick of the point of view you represent. Some are Calvinists who are tired of the anti-Calvinism. Some are Arminians (yes, you can be a member of a Presby church and be Arminian) but are tired of the politics. Others are sick of the legalism. Some, like a good friend of mine who was a deacon at the 2nd largest SBC church in NC, were tired of the latitudinarianism and lack of church discipline, where churches would brag about having 5000 “members” while less than half showed up on Sundays. You don’t see that in the PCA church he joined.
cb scott
on Jun 17th, 2007
@ 5:25 pm:
It was once said by a learned warrior; “Tis” better to eat razor blades than challenge GeneMBridges” and that is a fact:-) Therefore, Vol, chew with care:-)
cb
volfan007
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 12:56 am:
gene,
first of all, around my neck of the woods, grammer is not the highest priority in our life. in these parts, my grammer is better than most. btw, i know about capitalization, and if i was writing a formal letter, or writing a book, i’d do it. but, i aint. i’m just talking to you all.
secondly, in my neck of the woods, the presbyterian churches are mostly liberal and dead. i havent really scratched around to see if they are pcusa, fed ex, irs, ecoc, grade a, or what. there are one or two in memphis that i know about that are good churches. and, the methodist churches around here are all dying and going down. i know of some pastors personally who were called out of retirement to pastor three churches at the same time.
thirdly, i dont even know what a npp/fv heresy is. maybe you would like to explain it to me seeing how smart and intellectual you are with your big brain and all.
fourthly, i aint an arminian. you got me all wrong.
cb, you think that what gene bridges says makes me upset in any way? i’m sure that his momma loved him, but i have dealt with such things before, and far worse. my bro., you ought to know me better than that by now. :)
david
cb scott
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 2:47 am:
Vol,
Upset? Vol, you are always upset. Now, just chew with care. You will get through this and maybe you will learn………NAH…You won’t. You never do:-)
cb
cb scott
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 2:53 am:
Vol,
Seriously, it was good to see you again in San Antonio. I am sorry about the problem you had with a room. I mean that. Work hard tomorrow. Somebody is counting on you. I still owe you that cup of coffee. I will pay. I hope it is soon.
cb
volfan007
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 8:16 am:
cb,
me too.
david
Cyle
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 6:38 pm:
Hey, are people still barking like dogs? I thought that went out of style 10 years ago. :-) Not that I would ever bark like a dog in a Baptist church. Maybe in a Toronto Blessing church, but never a Baptist church. Ok, look, this is all tongue in cheek. I don’t want to be accused of something I haven’t actually done.
Art, I thought you were done with all this sort of blog-barking. I thought you were moving on to other things. I’m looking forward to the other things. There are only so many times you can go around this block and not lose your sanity.
Cyle
volfan007
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 7:48 pm:
cyle,
woof woof!
david
Art Rogers
on Jun 18th, 2007
@ 8:25 pm:
Cyle,
Missional shift begins Wednesday. Note the countdown timer. I am looking forward to it as well.