I wanted to say thank you to David Brown.

I am glad you are there and have spoken up.

I agree with him very much

The reason I am doing as well as I am is because, I have finally been able to talk about what had happened and it helped a great deal to know I am not alone and it is okay to break the silence.

I am extremely thankful to Miguel Prats with SNAP and Christa Brown, as it is a direct result of them coming forward that I was able to come forward myself.

The local churches are not doing what they should nor is SBC or the BGCT. I had been told by the ministers at different churches that I did try to get help from to either “let the past be in the past” “leave it in God’s Hands” My problem is I “haven’t forgiven yet” Not a single one of these ministers made any attempt to warn this other church of what that Pastor had done and my fear of him hurting someone else, due to what he had told me.

I cannot let the past be the past, as it is NOT past, as long as he is still a Pastor in a church where he has the ability to hurt other young girls. Also as my silence allowed him to be able to do this, I feel really guilty over this and I feel the need to do more and to speak up to prevent others from being hurt as well as trying to let others know it is okay to speak up, that is the only ways things well change.

To say leave it in God’s hands, well doing nothing is not leaving it in God’s hands. God has and does use people to do his will. I strongly believe that David, Miguel, Christa and many others are in fact doing what God would have them do.

As far as telling me that I have a problem, because I have not forgiven. Well that is a clear picture of how the local churches and probably the SBC & BGCT have this issue in their minds.

From all that I have heard no one wants to take responsibility and stand up and try to change things within the Baptist Leaders. In fact I was told directly by the BGCT that they were sorry for what I went through, but they were not going to do anything.

Art, you have pretty much said the same thing. You are sorry for what we have gone through, but you do not think that it is anyone’s responsibility. You pretty much state that the local churches are the ones that have to take care of this issue, but they do NOT and I doubt they will without more encouragement to do so and I think this is everyone’s responsibility.

I do not know how to get accomplished what needs to be done and I and the others NEED HELP. People need to stand up NOW and try to bring about some changes.

I have tried to go through Baptist leaders and churches to try to do something about this man and the current system, but that did not work. So when you have tried to do it the way you thought it should be done and that does NOT work, what do you do?

I have also found out that in the churches I have had experience with there are just a few that actually know and control what goes on in the church. Therefore the entire church body does not normally know about such sensitive things as abuse or accusation of abuse and therefore lack the knowledge to make an educated decision on such things.

I think this needs to be something that everyone needs to work together on including Local Churches, SBC, BGCT, SNAP and other Victim organizations as well as those who know and can speak regarding this.

Please open your mind and heart. Please people need to stop saying what Cannot work and start to come up with what can work. The current system is NOT working. We need things to improve. No more children need to be hurt due to people just doing nothing.

I know I do not really have the best words to explain this, but hopefully people understand what I am trying to say

Thanks again for listening

Debbie Vasquez

Again, I see so much in what you write with which I agree.

Do I specifically understand what it is to be a victim of clergy abuse? No. I can’t imagine, however, any situation that is more of a betrayal than that of clergy abuse.

Could the SBC be doing more? Yes.

Should we be silent? No.

Should we just hope it goes away? No.

I am thrilled you understand the SBC process. I am praying you are able to bring something valuable to us.

Art

In my previous post I made two errors. If you will check the time of my post you will see it was in the wee hours of the morning. At my age it is not wise to type at those hours.

The first error was, I am no longer a SNAP representive. I meant to type “former” when I identified myself as being with SNAP. But don’t get me wrong, SNAP is doing a great job in bringing this evil crime to light. Sure some may disagree with their methods, that is fine. But they have done far more good than most will ever realize. I think we can agree to disagree.

My second error and it was just an oversight. I should have used the word “messenger” as to the SBC. I have been a Southern Baptist since May 1967 when I accepted the Lord at Neely’s Bend Baptist Church in Madison, TN. I was born and raised in Nashville. My father’s firm worked very closely with the old Baptist Sunday School Board in doing their publications. I fully understand how the SBC works.

I have been working with some leaders in the SBC and the local association. I am in the process of putting together a program that we are going to be taking to the local churches educating them about this evil crime. The Shelby County crime victim center and assistant D.A. that prosecutes them are part of the program.

As for speaking to people at the convention, I too understand the process but you must start somewhere. Remaining silent is not the answer. Hoping this crime will go away is wrong. It is all around us. We must do something. The more we speak about this, the more we bring this evil out of the darkness.

Can the SBC be doing more? Certainly. Many things have been suggested. Having a database is such a simple thing to do. What about those churches that do not have the resources to perform a thorough background check? Who do they turn to? The minister involved at the Bellevue situation did surrendered his license to the ministry but what about those that don’t?

Art: I wish I could better explain the hurt and rage that we as victims of clergy abuse feel. I know that many times it has been said to us to just turn it over to the Lord. Well for many of us, it was the Lord’s representative that raped and abused us. It is not only a physical abuse but a spirtiual/soul murder we suffer. Trust is a hard thing for us. But when victims see people like Christa, Mike Coode, Ann Brentwood, David Clohessy, myself and other victims speaking out, they have hope. They want to believe they can be believed, loved and grow through their abuse. But that is a slow process. I was slient about my abuse for over 35 years. And it took another 9 years before I could really tell the truth. No one on this earth can do more harm to me than what that priest did to me on the floor of that cabin at Camp Marymount that fall Sunday night in 1961. I do not want to see or hear of one more child being sexually abused, especially by a clergy member.

In closing, I do praise the Lord for where I am at today and for HIM to allow me to suffer the abuse I have. When I reflect on what HE suffered for me; what I went thru was nothing. I count it all Praise and Blessing to have endured it. Because of the fire I was allowed to endure I have the courage to speak out and not be afraid. I try to speak out in love and yet there are times that doesn’t work. Some just don’t want to hear or believe what we have to say. Dr. Page said some of us are out for personal gain. He could not have been more wrong. Well that is their problem, I am not going anywhere and as long as the Lord tarries, I will continue to speak out in hopes of ending this evil crime.

Please be in prayer with me. We cannot fail our children.

David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500

Thanks for your response. I greatly appreciate the tenor of what you write. I don’t blame SNAP for shining a light on clergy sex abuse. I state that I don’t think you understand the polity of the SBC and how to get real things done. It has to be addressed locally.

For the record, again, I am against shielding predators. I think what you did with Bellevue is the exactly correct thing to have done. Steve Gaines should have done it himself and the church should call him to account for it.

That situation, though, makes my point exactly. The effective way in which to deal with child predators is to address them in the local situation with the local congregation. People close to the situation can deal quickly and decisively with the issues. You called the authorities, things are now being done. It only takes one person to see the problem and deal with it.

Why can’t the SBC do it? Churches aren’t required to answer to the SBC. They are required to answer to the local congregations. The SBC didn’t know what was happening at Bellevue. To my knowledge, neither Morris Chapman, Augie Boto nor Frank Page tried to cover up, defend or in any other way obfuscate what happened at Bellevue. They are not for what happened there, but they are treated as if it were their personal responsibility to know what was going on in the inner workings of the staff of Bellevue – once one of our premier churches, and though it is still rocked by controversy, still a church that many watch in hopes of greatness past revisited. In spite of this, none of the leadership nor the rest of the SBC is privy to the simple information that should have been addressed.

And what shall the SBC do with Steve Gaines? We didn’t hire him, we can’t fire him. We didn’t ordain him, we can’t defrock him. We don’t have the authority to tell the church what to do or how to do it. But Bellevue’s congregation can do any and everything that needs to be done to discipline him and protect their children.

So I would echo your words and say, “Please, no more blaming the people who are not in charge of a local congregation for that congregation’s failure to protect its children.” If we are to effectively address the situation, this is where it will be addressed, as your actions have exemplified.

SNAP is not building walls, quite the contrary. We are only seek to protect our children and grandchildren. I have been involved in the middle of the Bellevue Baptist Story since the very beginning. I was the one that reported the admitted pedophile to DCS and the District Attorney’s offices when the leadership there told me they were not sure there was anything to report. Those were the words from the Administrative Pasor, David Coombs to me.

The Senior Pastor, Steve Gaines, hid the fact that he was told in June of 2006 by the pedophile minister the truth. He kept this minister on staff and in fact it has been widely reported the minister received a raise during that time. It was NOT until this story was out of their hands did they take action. And then they only put him on paid leave of absence.

They had to form a committee to do an investigation yet they denied numerous requests from the victim to meet before it became public. See the victim was the son of the minister! He was questioning the qualifications of his father continuing as a minister.

Yet Dr. Gaines could not make that determination. It has to make one wonder what Book he really reads. He had to hire outside counsel to figure that one out. What happened to the 2002 SBC resolution? What happen to the Bible? Then when the report comes out, it is full of excuses. Dr. Gaines claims he did not know what this minister’s job responsibilites were. This is the same minister that took Dr. Gaines around Bellevue the first two weeks and introduced him to the staff. Then Dr. Gaines has the gaul to say these are uncharted waters!

Let me give you some stats that might cause you some concern. There are approximately 500,000 convicted or admitted pehophiles in the U.S. Do you know that over 250,000 of them claim they REGULARLY attend church?

So when you hear from vctims like Christa, myself and SNAP; don’t say we are speaking out for the wrong reasons; think again, yet pray about it FIRST. I know I have heard from many victims that are glad there is a Christa Brown or a David Brown that are not afraid to speak out. I too have heard from many victims of SBC clergy! It is all around us.

I am a former long time member of Bellevue Baptist Church. That church is dear to me. Two of my sons were saved there and that is the church where I met my lovely wife. I loved sitting under Dr. Rogers’ teaching. But it is no longer the church it once was. There needs to be change in its senior leadership.

When I see the SBC making lame excuses about taking action to protect our childen I have to wonder if it too has changed. Oh for the record, I will be at the convention as a delegate. Trust me I will have more to say there if they will allow me.

Please no more excuses or trying to blame SNAP for bringing attention of the SBC. They have done that themselves. Remember the comment from the pedophile preacher on the 20/20 segement? It is not the “stranger danger” you need to be worried about. Time for excuses has long since run its course. It is time for action. That is what we want.

We must NOT fail our children.

In HIS Service,

David Brown

davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500

I am sorry, I do appreciate some of your words, I just need to find a way to help make things better.

I know my knowledge is limited and my words not as good as some, but my heart is screaming out. Please if people really understood the damage to such young lives and the hurt that they live with until they die, and many die too soon, maybe more would be done.

I see too little being done. I do not know if it is out of fear of being sued, or if concern for the name of the church or if it is financial or what — I do not know. However, I do not believe change is not possible — I do not believe things should be as they are and that a way cannot be found.

I guess I have said what I felt I needed to say. I probably repeated myself too much, but I do not know what else to do to help in this matter.

Thanks for listening

Debbie

On several levels I appreciate you. What was done to you was tragic and evil. The illicit cooperation with this apparent predator was a travesty of justice and of the church’s charge to safeguard its children. I am sorry.

I can only answer two things for you from your statement.

1. No, there is no way for any convention or association to require churches to do anything. It is set up just the opposite.

2. The other churches in the convention or association CAN and SHOULD disassociate any church who covers, sidesteps or endorses sex offenders working with minors, whether they be volunteer or professional. Caveat: This clearly needs to be proven that they understood the situation and intentionally allowed it to exist/continue.

Ultimately, the SBC, at all of its levels, can educate and encourage. That is about it. All participation in the convention is voluntary, which takes it back to the local churches. Any local church that does not pursue the safety of its children is responsible for the suffering of victims that depended on them for protection. Just as the church where you grew up is to blame. Whoever made you “confess” to a pregnancy by rape as if you were a promiscuous teenager and insisted that you protect the pastor “for the good of the church,” is criminally responsible for your situation and the victimization of all that followed in your footsteps. It all hinges on the local church. That is where the problems, and solutions, lie.

Bless you in seeking justice and healing for yourself and all the others for whom you lobby.

I am afraid that there is still too much blame game and accusations that should not be taking priorty and drawing attention away from this really serious problem.

Unfortunately, I have had personal experiences with several churches where no action has occured.

I cannot speak for anyone but myself — but my goal has been to help protect children. I tried through a number of groups including the police – child protective services – the BGCT and other Local Churches and nothing was done to protect this child. Only after trying all of these avenues did I finally end up getting a lawyer and when approached did speak to reporters, as I felt I had exhausted other options to try to bring about change. That is why I feel this way. I do think Christa’s intentions are good. I am not her and cannot speak for her, but does it really matter as long as it helps children.

The following is what I have already stated to a number of people, please understand What I want is for things to get better. Can we all work together on this. No excuses no blaming anyone for anything, just decide this is a real problem and that if we all work together a solution can occur. But everyone has to stop saying what they cannot do and start to find away to accompolish more to fix things. I am not suggesting that the way the SBC or BGCT are set up be changed, just that they find a way to compromise and work together. I feel an indpendent review board on complaints would be of help. That information about those ministers that have abused these young people be made known, so they do not go from church to church.
I think there are still a lot of other things that could be done. I do not know that the web is the best place to do this. I personally think that people from each group should sit down in a room without media and agree to talk openly and honestly with an agreement that what is said at this meeting be kept private, so fear of lawsuit and/or publicity is not there — that the meeting is just about coming up with ideas. I know there are very intelligent people in these organizations and I hope care enough to put aside past feelings and work on this. Is this possible?

Hi

I hope you are doing well.

I am writing you, as I am a Baptist and believe very strongly in God and think that it would be a good thing if you could help.

I would like to say what I want to say, but I am afraid I will say it wrong and you may take offense. I just want to find away to make things better. I do NOT want to play any blame game nor do I want to hear any defense on the way things are done now. I would like those things put aside and a true effort to make things better.

Can you please help me gain knowledge?

I do not know the process for change to occur, but would like to know. Can you please tell me what steps are now being taken? I cannot really rest until I know that steps have been taken to help protect children and a better system is set up to handle those who do have the courage to come forward about abuse they have experienced.

I want to tell you a little of what had happened to me.

I was 14 yrs old when this so called “man of God” starting touching me inappropriately and then raped me when I was 15 yrs old. He continued to abuse me for many years. I eventually became pregnant with his child (which I can prove). I was made to go before the church and confess that I was a pregnant unwed teenage girl and to ask them for forgiveness, but was not allowed to tell who the father was as that would “Hurt the Church”. This man then went on to pastor a church in Arizona and then came back to Texas and is currently a pastor in a Baptist Church. I was told NOT to tell and I thought I was doing the right thing by keeping silent. Then he was telling me about these other young girls and then I realized my silence allowed him access to other young girls. Then I knew my silence was wrong. I did go to the police and child protective services and they said they could do nothing without the name of this child and that the statue of limitation kept them from doing anything about what he did to me. I tried very hard to get that name of the girl he had told me about, but could not get him to give me this girl’s name. I even made a tape recording of him and gave it to the police, which they somehow misplaced. However, I kept a copy just in case.

I also went to the BGCT — they basically said they were sorry but they were not going to change their way of doing things. Even after I informed them that this man was still a Pastor of a church and that I had proof to back up what I was saying, they did nothing. I feel that they should have made some kind of attempt to at least warn his church of the potential danger to their children.

I believe that if the BGCT & SBC and local churches work together perhaps things could change

I know the whole thing about how Baptist churches are independent. But I also know that on a number of things they do cooperate and work together. Can this not be one of them? Is there not a way to put aside pride and hurt feelings. Can we not do more to help protect these young people who are at risk?

Not all churches do background checks or even check references. I know of at least 2 Baptist churches that do NOT do this.

Is there not a way to make it part of the rules for a church to belong to the SBC & BGCT or any other Baptist organization to be required to do these background checks and to check out where a person was before hiring him. Cannot the SBC & BGCT remove a church from it’s organization, if they knowingly allow a man who has been convicted or there is strong evidence or a confession of inappropriate sex with teenagers or children to be a minister.

Why would it be a bad thing to have a group of people to investigate allegations of abuse?

It would be hard for churches to investigate their own minister, because of the love they have for him and they will tend to believe him and not look at this with an open mind. Just as a doctor will not operate on a family member, why would you want to put the church family in such a position?

Why can we not set up a way to keep track of those who have been convicted or have confessed or have been shown to have had inappropriate sex with minors? If a minister can do this and then just move to another state, as this has happened in my case, and then put at risk yet another church’s children. There should be a list and it needs to be shared with other churches to keep this from happening.

I have read where it has been said that the police have such a list. However, there are cases that are past the statue of limitation and therefore cannot be on their list. Not to mention that churches are more likely to check with the Baptist leaders first and may not check with police.

I pray that this can be talked about with everyone wanting what is best for these innocent children and to honestly try to come up with some steps to help to protect them. Even if these actions only save one child, is it not worth the effort.

Please consider these things — Please open up your heart and mind and talk with some of the people who are trying to get things changed. Please put aside differences and compromise — come up with a solution together. If you have problems with the suggestions already made — please come up with better ones — but please do not ignore and pretend this problem does not exist. Please help to stop other people like myself from being hurt the way I was hurt. You can make a difference, please do so

I mean no disrespect — I care very much for God and his church

I am afraid there are many who have been abused and have turned away from God and this is not a good thing.

Thanks for your time

Debbie V

I am not requiring Christa to bring anything to the SBC. I am merely stating that if she wants actual productivity in the SBC becoming a more safe place for kids, then she will have to endeavor to understand us and bring ideas that actually work with our structure when she chooses to come.

This thread was intended to illicit practical ideas from Southern Baptists on this issue.

Debbie,

It did not take media exposure to make this problem something with which we are dealing. Southern Baptist churches have been taking this seriously for years. Unfortunately, not all of them do. Will media exposure help? Probably, but when it is mixed with the representation that the SBC is interested in protecting predators, it is not helpful. You implied that this was your perspective, too. That the SBC is more interested in protecting these people because they are dear to them and it is not worth the price paid by victims to out these twisted individuals.

My experience, and what I hear from so many other SBC ministers and congregations, is just the opposite. I have never known a congregation to sit by when it is found out that a minister in their employ is a child molester. I don’t know anyone who wants such a twisted individual to be their pastor. Also, I don’t know any minister who protects predators within their church. The ministers I know would, and have, pursued such incidents immediately and with great vigor. This includes one of the pastors who has commented on this blog, and I am not talking about me, either.

I am sure that Christa wants children to be safe. My questions to her, though (while running the risk of appearing insensitive or soft on pedophilia – I am NOT) are intended to discover if there are any additional motives propelling some of her actions.

Let’s go back to the media attention, for instance. I have repeatedly asked whether or not she gave the names of the 6 men who were convicted sex offenders and on an SBC website to anyone in the SBC. I have not received an answer. It seems to me that if you really want to protect kids, and that is all you want, the first thing out of your mouth when you find these people is “Morris Chapman, President and CEO of the Executive Committee of the SBC, these are the names of convicted sex offenders on this particular SBC website, and they are using your website to look for other places to serve. They are dangerous. Please remove them so that they are not able to use the resources of the SBC to facilitate their victimization of others.” I asked Dr. Chapman if he knew anything about this. He said that he received no names. He suggested another name and I have a few more names that I am going to ask about this. The way it reads when she herself describes the removal of the names in the above comment, is that when the SBC discovered the specific names, they removed them. Until that time, the names were withheld so that it could make a bigger splash in the media when the story broke.

Should predators be on our website? Absolutely not. We need to fix that, right away.

Again, we can and should do more. I want good ideas that SBC churches will buy into. Ultimately, though, the individual churches have the power to stop this. There is little power at the top and SBC churches cannot and will not submit to a top down structure. It is not who we are. Voluntary participation, just as we voluntarily participate together in missions, is the key to any group effort on this front. Illicit the churches to join together, and you will do much. Poke at the top and spin the media and you may accomplish something, but it will never be as much as you could have.

Thanks for reading and writing. I appreciate your attitude.

I have to say there are honest points on all sides of this.

I wish I could say otherwise, but the honest truth is that it took media exposure to get this problem acknowledged and hopefully more will be done in regards to this.

I have not had a lot of experience as far as how to bring about change, but as a victim, it is very frustrating. The way it is now, more effort is made to protect the accused minister and the victim is under attack. I had contacted the BGCT and told them of being abused since the age of 14 and I told them I even had a child from this minister. I told them of my concern for others as this man was still a Pastor in a Baptist Church. I also told them I had proof of this including a tape recording I had made of him. However nothing was done to warn the church he was at and he had already pastored another church in another state. So I know this happens and steps need to be taken. I know of 2 other cases personally of this same kind of thing, so I do not think this is a rare event as some seem to think.

There is another minister, who knew and is still trying to cover this up. Even after the knowledge was given to the few people, who I guess represent his church, they decided to leave him as the pastor. They also decided that the church body as a whole did not need to know anything about this. I believe that you cannot leave it up to each church. I have stated this before. How can you expect a church family to investigate their own beloved minister. This makes no more since than having a doctor operate on their own family member.

I know there are flaws in proposals given. It is hard to try to come up with solutions on this e-mail stuff. I agree it does no good to attack each other. I strongly believe that the SBC & BGCT & LOCAL CHURCHES AND CHRISTA BROWN AND SNAP AND OTHER VICTIMS need to cooperate with each other and put aside hurt feelings and the blame game. As Christians, is there not a way to bring some key people together in each group and sit down in a more friendly atmosphere and come up with some suggestions that might improve things. I think the safety of our children is worth it, don’t you all? I am sorry, but as is we fall short on protecting children.

I could write quite a bit on the experiences I have had and what I have gone through, just trying to find a way to protect another child, that I was told about and yet all the people I went to did not help.

I do not want to do away with or even change the basis of the SBC or BGCT, I just want some necessary steps to take place to better protect these young people, who cannot protect themselves. Many of these at risk young people do not have parents or other people, who will stand up for them and protect them. Quite honestly it is very hard for someone who has been abused to even admit it. We as Christian are suppose to be family, so it is time we start to look out for our family.

I do not know who all of you are, but hopefully some of you know enough or no someone that can do something constructive towards making things better.

Please I urge you to do so

I understand and appreciate where Christa is coming from and applaud her for her efforts. We all owe her a thank you for bringing this subject to light. Please try putting yourself in her shoes. After all her motive is to protect other children.

As for the Baptist community, I do not think this is a personal attack. Please do not take it that way, as that takes away the ability to work together on this very serious problem that really is out there.

I am sorry, I know I am not that good with words and tend to be long winded, but is anyone out there that can do more than just talk. Please it is time to take action and try to work together . I am not stating that nothing has been done, but not enough and the current system is not working.

Thanks for your time

Debbie