Page says ’20/20′ segment one-sided
Apr 18th, 2007 | By art rogers | Category: Church, Family, General Christian, SBCPage says ’20/20′ segment one-sided
Baptist Press has released a news article that is relevant to the issue of sexual exploitation by ministers within the Southern Baptist denomination.
In it, Frank Page criticizes the 20/20 piece as lopsided, “yellow journalism.” I watched the piece and did consider it to be one sided.
I am familiar with the issue because I have made myself familiar with it over the last ten years. I realized just how vulnerable churches are when attending a Youth Ministers’ meeting in conjunction with my state convention about 10 years ago. In that meeting, a veteran Youth Minister went into detail about the churches he knew who were sorting through the wreckage of allowing a predator to work with their minors.
If you missed the full piece, you can catch the opening minutes here, and you should watch it before you read further.
One of the key personalities in the 20/20 piece was Christa Brown. Christa is also a leader and spokeswoman for a group called SNAP - Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (and other clergy). On their website, if you go there right away, you will find a link to this article, “Southern Baptist Abuse Cases Garnering More Attention, Warnings.”
Well, it so happens that Christa and SNAP have had a contentious relationship with the SBC for a little while now. Some time early last year, Christa put me on her email list. I started getting a steady flow of unsolicited email communicating negatively about the SBC and potential predators within.
Now, let me say, my email address has been available on my blog for a long time – and that is an open invitation to email me. I know this and have no problems with her doing it. I did begin to have a problem with the flood of email that I got, and the bulk responses that I got from other recipients of the emails (members, I assume, of the SNAP network). Eventually, I had to block Christa from sending me email. It was too much.
I suppose I got on her list by her reading my blog and thinking that I was willing to go after SBC leadership. While I am willing to call a spade a spade, I also need to see things the same way before I haul off and blister the SBC with a post or series of posts. I didn’t see it the same way she did. I still don’t.
Let me clarify that. I didn’t think the SBC was taking things lightly, but was continuing to encourage member churches to work hard to protect their children. In short, I thought they were taking it seriously, but weren’t jumping through SNAP’s hoops, and that raised their ire.
At this point, I want to refer you to a series of articles from the latest edition of SBC life about their ongoing discussions with SNAP.
SNAP Apologizes to SBC Leaders
SBC Executive Committee Response to SNAP Allegations
I appreciate the EC member who looked Christa in the eye and told her that we were on the same side – not enemies. The above quoted article (from The Christian Post) made a lot out of this quote from Marty Duren’s blog, SBC outpost, “If the charges are true, though, it will be worth the skewering to help us be better prepared to stop a pedophile’s ability to jump from church to church with no coordinated process for protection.” Unfortunately, the charges were assumed to be true without any qualification. They are not. The article compares the SBC with the Roman Catholic Church and the claim of autonomy is deferred because the Bishops were claiming that they didn’t have control over the local situations. While the RCC covered up several instances of child sexual abuse, the SBC has never done that, though it is implied in the 20/20 piece in the opening minutes as Jim Avila describes churches that should be sanctuaries for “just the innocent, but sometimes, far too often, shield the guilty.” Moreover, in the case of the hierarchical RCC, it is not true that local situations lack oversight and governance. In the SBC, it is completely true that the SBC does not have the privilege of oversight and governance among local congregations. Ultimately, it is up to the local church to do their due diligence in allowing anyone – professional or volunteer – to work with minors. When I interviewed with my church, the Search Committee hired a professional service to do every background check in the world on me. I was told that they felt that they owed it to the church. Who could argue with that? Only someone with something to hide. When it was done, I felt completely exposed by all that they knew about me. There were no doubts, though, when they shared the depths of their search with the church.
SNAP, and 20/20, both are complaining about the set up of the SBC. They want a top down organization so that they can get that one entity to force the rest to do what SNAP wants. It isn’t that way and never will be. The Convention would lose almost every member church if it were seriously attempted. Of course, the Messengers would just vote it down. It can’t happen and won’t. We would all be better served if they would seek to understand the SBC and then look for solutions that fit us.
Finally, the SBC is continuing to work through the issue. The convention continues to encourage churches to do whatever needs to be done, and dispenses helpful information as churches take on the task.
Here are some things I think we could do that would be helpful.
- A national list of convicted sex offenders who had served within churches would help. At the very least we should check those men whose names appear on our “available ministers” convention websites against sex offender charges. If you want to post your resume, you should have to pay for a background check that goes along with your social security number. There were, I believe, six men on the national website that were convicted sex offenders. Ultimately, this issue is going to have to be a local church issue. You will gather far more information about a specific person at the local church level than any beauracracy can gather about a public at large. Still, at the very least we shouldn’t be providing a platform for predators to use convention facilities to find a place to harm children.
- Through bulk purchasing, the SBC could leverage great prices from several background check agencies, making it easier and less expensive for churches to do what they need to do. You can buy office equipment, furniture and software through these bulk buys on the Lifeway website, why not background checks? [update] Dorcas Hawker, in the comment section of this post, has provided a link where Lifeway is doing just that. You can follow the link to the Lifeway site for more information. Here’s to the SBC for doing something real and practical to help churches avoid child predators. It would be helpful to advertise this a little better, so I’ll help with the link here.[/update]
- Make child safety a part of every educational emphasis we have. I have spoken at convention trainings before. Child Safety classes should be the best option offered, and should be heavily promoted. Also, the speaker can offer, along with books from Lifeway that are always on sale at these things, bulk buy background checks, now available at a reduced price.
Well, there is just a few thoughts. What are yours? How can we make the SBC a safer place while dealing with the reality that is autonomy?
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We need to educate ministers and lay leaders about the reporting process in their state. Who is mandated to report, how and when to report suspected child abuse, all vary from one state to the next.
Maybe it was one sided. But can anyone dispute that there are predators in our churches? I don’t think so. We may not like the 20/20 report but sometimes the truth hurts.
I agree with Kevin…I was watching the piece, ready to righteously defend the SBC….then I saw that there were convicted predators on our website and enrolled in our seminary. wonderful. That, to me, is inexcusable. I know we can’t do everything that SNAP wants, but seriously, can we get someone to check those lists? some background checks for our seminary students? It appears, both to me and the watching world, that we are currently doing nothing. nothing. I am waiting for someone to prove me wrong, please….
In Christ,
Tim Cook
Brother Art,
The words you have written make the most sense of any I have seen since this story broke. I do not know that I am on board with creating list of convicted sex offenders, but I certainly am on board with policing the list we have that makes resumes available to the churches. While you and I know that this list is not an endorsement by the SBC, people at large view it that way.
Brother Kevin,
Yes the truth does hurt. But what hurts worse is everyone willing to throw out over 400 years of polity just to appease a group that has targeted the SBC and will not be satisfied until our convention does exactly what they say we should.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim R,
With all do respect, I could care less about 400 years of polity vs. just 1 child or church member who has been sexually abused. I don’t agree with everything SNAP says but we can’t ignore what they say if it is true just because we don’t like them.
Art,
Thanks for writing about this. As is so often the case, you make good sense.
What a lot of folks fail to understand is that the “list” of ministers is a list that comes from the churches. I put myself on that list, and nobody asked me any questions. In fact, I think I’m on the list twice, once as “Wes Kenney,” and once as “G. Wesley Kenney.” It is not a list that the convention maintains, or even ever looks at, probably.
Clearly, education of our churches is the key, and it is a perfectly proper role for our entities to undertake.
art,
i really like the way you are approaching this. i agree with tim r. you have made the most sense of anyone on this issue. thanks for the great insight on a very difficult subject.
david
Let me say again that I deplore anything that would endanger a child and my church is, and has been since I arrived, increasing its security measures.
Tim Cook,
I think it is another good idea to do background checks for seminary applicants. The fee for it can be part of the application fees. Regardless of what anyone says, a Seminary degree is often seen as a stamp of endorsement. Although it is not, we should still take minimum steps here for the safety of our children and that’s a good one.
By the way, the seminarian in the 20/20 piece was Methodist, not SBC, but I do believe we have had several in our own Seminaries – so I am not excusing the SBC on that instance.
Also, if you read the articles to which I linked, you will see some of the things we are already doing. We need to do more, no doubt.
Kevin & Tim,
This is not about throwing polity out the window to protect a child. It will never happen that our polity will go away without the churches leaving as well. SBC churches are SBC churches because they are fiercely independent. This is often to our benefit, but like most things, it has its drawbacks. If someone were to unilaterally upend the SBC and make it a top down organization, not that such a thing can happen, it would simply dissolve the SBC because almost every church in the Convention would leave and become Independent Baptist Churches. It is a non issue.
Everyone,
The way that SNAP needs to deal with us is not to complain that our polity protects predators, but to understand our polity and make helpful suggestions that will make us better in doing what we are already committed to doing. They are building walls. Again, if you haven’t read the articles linked above, you should. You will find us working on the issue and SNAP taking a contentious attitude with the SBC. Like the EC member said, we are on the same side – we are not each other’s enemies.
Having said that, the EC needs to look into installing background checks on our website, our entities – all of them – should also include background checks for employment and enrollment, whichever is appropriate.
What else can we add to the list? If we get some good stuff, we might be able to add it to a resolution or a motion requesting the EC study it. I will be glad to make the motion.
I’m done. It is obvious I’m much different than most of my fellow SBC pastors. I’m tired of giving my opinion. I’m tired of all this mess. I will no longer say another word. It gets me too worked up. I have nothing in common with these far right winged guys. It is obvious that I don’t belong in this conversation or any other.
Art,
I appreciate you but I’m gone.
Art -
Lifeway already has a discounted program set up with an investigation company. Check it out here. I don’t know if that is the one we use at Parkview, so not linking to it as a specific recommendation, but just to say that there are resources already out there.
When I attended the National Preschool and Children’s Ministry conference put on by Lifeway last October in Arlington, some of the companies in the exhibit hall were background check companies. So at least at the children’s ministry functions, the Convention is providing this information and resources.
Brother Kevin,
After reading my last comment to you, it may have come across as acrimonious and that is not what I desired. Please forgive me if that is the way you received it. Having said that, I will not back up on the Baptist polity of autonomy, I do not care what group tries to paint it as being bad and a cover to hide behind. I know better, and I believe everyone knows we are not using this polity to stick our heads in the sand. It is autonomy that gives strength to the chain of sand.
I will agree with you that children being abused is a problem and a very serious one at that. I am all for stopping those convicted from going church-to-church looking for other victims. At the same time, this is not just about children. It is about those in leadership in local churches. How can we tell a church that we will not maintain fellowship with them if they do not do background checks on their staff, but in the same breath tell a church they are free to believe whatever they desire as long as it does not violate scripture? How can we say we must develop a list and maintain a list, but in the same breath say we must stop all of the bureaucratic tendencies of duplicating things? Also, if you remember, Jim Avilia cornered Dr. Page with this group of convicted pedophiles on an approved SBC list of ministers. If there already exists a list of approved ministers within the SBC someone needs to answer two questions. One, where is that approved list and how is it used? Two, who in Nashville approves ministers to go to the churches?
Blessings,
Tim
Dorcas,
Awesome. Thank you very much.
Kevin,
I don’t disagree with you and I hope you don’t see me doing so. All I am saying is that if SNAP wants to be helpful, they should understand who we are so they can make practical suggestions that will work.
What they are doing by complaining about a structure they don’t understand and running to the media to complain further is just building walls of resistance. I want to work with whomever to protect every child under my church’s care. There is no debate about that. I just want them to get on target.
Remember, SNAP just apologized (I linked to the story) for going to the media and claiming that they had never had a response from the SBC. The SBC had responded, but they lost the letters and shouted into a bullhorn that the SBC was ignoring the issue. This is an out and out fabrication and puts us on the defensive. When they apologized, how widespread was the information that they were previously wrong? We are the ones who published that story, because no one else is making that known.
Again, building walls by attacking what cannot be changed vs. understanding who we are and working with us to help us improve. No one is for lax churches or protecting the most evil in our society – and I consider those who prey on children just that. I certainly don’t want them in leadership positions in our churches. The only church I can lead to do this, though, is mine.
Tim,
Autonomy is not in jeopardy, as I said before. You do make some good points, particularly about complaining that there is bureaucracy in the SBC and then demanding that they set up more bureaucratic hoops. That is a bit of a double standard.
As for the preachers that Jim Avila found on our website, that was fair game. We shouldn’t have them there and we should screen folks before we agree to post their resume. Period.
I think a more telling note from the interview is, for the most part, they used only the website information, but threw away the other two hours worth of information that didn’t suit the slant of the story – information about what the SBC is doing to help churches avoid predators.
Tim: How in the world can you equate the two. It is about the children. I agree with what Kevin has said. I will give it to you that Christa Brown is angry. She was molested as a young girl by someone she trusted. This changes a person from who they were. It’s not something you forget, one just learns to live with it. She is trying for this not to happen again. She is passionate in this, even militant about it. She knows what happens to a child who is molested. Two compare the SBC helping churches with information even more than they are now(as it is not working as well as it could be) is ludicrous. While I give kudos that Frank Page did not skirt the issue and gave a 2 hour interview, and while I realize that the churches have policies, more can be done. Do I have the answers? No. But I do agree that taking the 20/20 interview along with trying to work with SNAP possibly could be the beginning of a solution.
That should be to compare. My apologies.
I do not believe that anyone in the SBC or churches may be hiding knowing abusers, however I recall the recent incident at Bellevue so there is still a problem. Bellevue may be an isolated case, but we cannot say we know this for sure. That alone should awaken some action. I am not asking for more hoops, I am asking for the Convention to use monies to develop a better plan. A Data base just for Southern Baptists or something else.
Here, as I see it, is the biggest problem with a database: Because there are no prerequisite criteria for whom a Southern Baptist church can call as a pastor, there are therefore no criteria for determining whom to screen in the database.
“Why, that’s a simple matter, Barber—we would list all of the offenders who are Southern Baptist ministers!”
Hmmm…and how would you know who those are? How are you going to identify the GM factory worker who serves as a bivocational pastor at a small church in a blue-collar suburb? He’s never been to seminary. He doesn’t go to associational meetings or conventions, because he’s at work then. His church doesn’t bother to fill out an ACP. How is the SBC even going to know that he exists even after he becomes the pastor, much less beforehand?
And then there are all of the folks who move among denominations. Although he is not a pastor, consider Dr. John Lilley, president of Baylor University. He’s been a Presbyterian elder for years, but in the lofty tradition of Henry of Navarre, he became Baptist again to take the helm of this erstwhile-Baptist university. Or what about Sam Storms? He’s spent the vast majority of his life as a pedobaptist. How on earth would the SBC know whom to include in the database and whom not to include?
So, the SBC database option takes us down one of two paths. First, SBC churches might realize that it is riddled with holes and check both it and the Megan’s Law databases—but the Megan’s Law databases contain all of the people that the SBC database would contain, so what’s the point in that? Second, and most frightening, SBC churches might not realize the flaws of the database, might rely on it exclusively, might call a pastor thinking that they have done their due diligence, and might wind up with a sexual predator that they might have caught if there had been no SBC database to give them a false sense of security.
So I agree with you, Art.
Let me jump in here.
You said the seminarian in the 20/20 segment was a Methodist not SBC? But was that Methodist enrolled at Southern? Robert Parham (who with BP also covered SNAP’s apology and events leading up to it) stated several weeks ago that SBTS has convicted sex offenders on its campus. However, he did not name names.
This article does. One landed on the registry for incest and the other for child porn possession.
Timmy Brister (a SBTS student I think?) provided the link recently on his blog.
As to SNAP, their first request of the SBC was to establish an investigative body (review board) to look into allegations of sex abuse. Most have dismissed this proposal as a violation of autonomy. And the specifics may violate that autonomy.
But, honestly, I don’t see a huge difference between such a general proposal for a Convention-wide review board and the Sanderson-Amendment recently adopted by the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina. That amendment ultimately allows the Executive Committee of the state convention to “investigate” reports that a church “knowingly acts to affirm, approve, endorse, promote, support, or bless homosexual behavior.” If the Exec Comm deems a church guilty after an investigation – that congregation gets the boot and is no longer in friendly cooperation with BSNC.
Only two complaints about the alleged gay-friendly church are needed for an investigation to begin.
With so many similarities, how can one proposal (Christa Brown’s) violate local church autonomy and the other (Sanderson Amendment) not do the same? Or perhaps autonomy is not violated and the SBC should consider a review board of sorts? I’m not arguing either way – just asking. However, I’ve studied enough Baptist history to know that moderates, conservatves, and fundamentalists have (in the past) hid behind autonomy and other doctrines even when they claim they’re not…
Art,
Congratulations for posting the first responsible article on this subject. This is an exemplary model of how we do not make ourselves a problem but a solution to a problem. I have increasingly become impressed with your journalism.
I want to first offer that there is an unfortunate theme to most of the attacks on the SBC on this subject- that of pushing responsibility elsewhere. I would hate to see my Christian brothers adopt the culture’s attitude of shurking responsibility and blame. Tim rightly notes that it is autonomy that gives us a measure of protection in these matters, for the top-down control is what has allowed other denominations and world religions to knowingly hide or conceal the predators.
Second, it is deplorable to even insinuate that anyone in the SBC would want to protect child predators. That said, the SBC is not responsible for the protection of your children. You are. They are doing for the autonomous churches far more than they are required. Their lack of diligence in vetting every minister (which Bart shows as ludricous), or informing the churches of all predators is a direct indictment on each church where it occurs, OR each individual that perpetrates an act of violence or abuse. (For how do you stop first-timers?) You are responsible for your children and your church leadership. Run the background checks yourself. Search the databases yourself. Take responsibility.
With that said, I think it is a wise use of resources to put in place an aid program to churches that will allow them a background checking service. HOWEVER, this must be just one tool in the church’s belt, for they need to follow up with references, local law enforcement, an observance IN THE HOME of every potential minister to see how he interacts with his family, etc. Additionally, perhaps a national campaign to the churches showing them HOW DO DO THIS TYPE OF RESEARCH is in order. Or, perhaps, the local churches can call and request someone to help. I would be willing to participate in this endeavor.
Art, again, you are the man.
Colin
p.s. you said, “and running to the media to complain further is just building walls of resistance…”
Thank you for the aknowledgement that this is exactly what the “press conferences” and calling every major newspaper does
Aaron,
No, I think the seminarian in the piece was at a methodist Seminary. I did say, however, that this was not an attempt to dodge that bullet. I knew of a few instances of SBC seminarians who had been caught as well. SEBTS had a student who had molested a child during Greensboro last year, if I am not mistaken. I think I heard about it on the radio as I was driving home. I was disgusted and angry, as most Southern Baptists were.
As for the Christa Brown proposal and the Sanderson-Amendment…
This may be splitting hairs, but it seems that Christa is asking for a board that would require churches to do certain things in the hiring of pastors and the Sanderson-Amendment is looking into whether or not to cooperate with churches that are not in line with a certain prescribed standard of theological agreement.
Now, can the two be reconciled? Possibly. It might be that each state convention could create a committee that would look into allegations of churches who covered up or failed to disclose instances of child abuse and we could cease to cooperate with them. I think it is too much for the national convention to police, but states could do it.
As always, autonomy is an easy shield, but I think it is also a real chasm between what Christa Brown has proposed and what we are capable of doing.
Once again, if she and SNAP would understand exactly who we are and how we operate, then they could make suggestions that are feasible and would not get a lot of the push back.
Colin,
Thanks for the endorsement. I do want to clarify the media thing.
It always creates resistance when you expose people to the media. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be exposed. The issue I have with SNAP is that some of the things that they have said to the media were false, claiming their false statement was quiet and none of it seems to understand the situation with which they are trying to deal.
Anyone who doesn’t understand the issues, makes false statements or intentionally misleads the media are only doing themselves harm. You and I may not agree on all of the people that fit into this category, however.
Again, thanks for the endorsement.
Art
I made this comment on Kevin B’s blog and i still think it will work!
I was thinking as I was reading the comments, why couldn’t those who are pastors in SBC churches submit their names to the SBC and have a back ground check done and have a list of Pastor who have checked out as “OK” and that list would be available to churches and it could be updated regularly that way you are not dealing with the false accusation and if the name of a pastor is not on that list it would flag him to be checked (not accused) for a back ground check.
I know most new pastors wouldn’t know about this but when they become a pastor or a staff member their local association could then tell them to add their name to the list.
It’s not perfect but I think it could work.
I also know that there would be a large expense to the SBC but every church gives to the SBC so it is in my mind worth the cost!
What do ya’ll think?
In Him
Kevin Lancaster
Kevin,
Yours is a bright, creative idea. Unfortunately, I think there is a flaw. Once you get on the list, if you are convicted of a relevant crime afterwards, how would the SBC know to take you off the list? How long would that take? And if you managed to move to another church in the interim, how bad would it be for the SBC to have vouched for a person who was a convicted sexual predator?
Yikes!
Art, I had never seen your blog before, but your posting today just popped up on my google alerts. So I’m puzzled. I just did a search of my address book and didn’t come up with anyone named Art Rogers. So I can’t imagine how you’re getting unwanted emails from me. And the only people who ever get on my email list are people who have written to me first. So…did you write me under a pseudonym sometime in the past?
I notice you provide links to those Baptist Press and SBC Life articles accusing SNAP and me of making “false accusations” and of being “less than honest.” If anyone’s interested in reading a version other than what the SBC’s own press puts out, here’s where you can find it at my website.
We were never, ever in any way “less than honest”…and reporters who deal with us know that. And how long is it going to take before the SBC makes an apology to me for having written that it had no record of my perpetrator still being in ministry? A misplaced brush-off letter is a mistake of far less consequence than a misplaced child-molesting minister. (And it always did strike me as a bit strange that no one was able to locate him, given that he worked with a recent past president of the SBC and also a recent past president of the Florida Baptist Convention.)
At the same meeting in which an EC member looked me in the eye and said he wasn’t the enemy, I also looked him in the eye, along with other EC members, and said very plainly that I would make no apology whatsoever for having gone to the media. As best I can tell, that’s what it takes to get child-molesting clergy removed from Southern Baptist churches. In fact, it takes going to the media to even prod the simple clerical task of getting convicted child molesters removed from the SBC’s online listing of Southern Baptist ministers. By the way…the six convicted child molesters about whom Page was informed in his 20/20 interview were finally removed from the SBC’s website today. It’s been at least 19 days since Page’s interview, and it took the actual airing of the 20/20 segment, an EthicsDaily piece naming the six convicted child molesters, and a SNAP news release this morning to get those names removed.
Debbie, I think most people who have actually talked with me, including some Baptist ministers, don’t view me as an angry person. But I do intend to keep speaking out about something that seems to make Southern Baptist leaders very uncomfortable. I think speaking out about it and bringing it into the public light is what it will take in order for other kids to be made safer.
Christa,
Thanks so much for stopping by. I have no explanation as to how I was receiving SNAP email. I only know that I was and was having gatherings, protests and press releases sent to me and replied back to me (as in numerous recipients hitting the “reply all” button) so I got deluged by a conversation I did not ask to get into. I have never emailed you.
As for the SBC not apologizing to you, do you have any record that they knew where he was? If they did know he was a child abuser and that he was in a SBC church – and didn’t do anything about it – then an apology is the least of the issues.
Again, I don’t think you understand the SBC works and that is the root of the whole problem. I get my copy of the SBC life addressed to the Minister of Music that held the position three people ago. They don’t know I’m here or where the other guy is.
It’s not a top down system. It’s a loose, voluntary affiliation, with both churches and ministers moving in and out of the denomination daily. You want them to be top down, but it won’t happen. Our churches will just become independent and there will certainly be no accountability then.
This quote shows what I mean:
“At the same meeting in which an EC member looked me in the eye and said he wasn’t the enemy, I also looked him in the eye, along with other EC members, and said very plainly that I would make no apology whatsoever for having gone to the media. As best I can tell, that’s what it takes to get child-molesting clergy removed from Southern Baptist churches.”
I think that you presume that we want to hide the issue. We don’t. This is a real issue that we all take very seriously. I notice that you don’t highlight or in any way reference the things that are being done by the SBC. It seems that, as far as what you take to the media, the SBC is doing nothing but hiding from the issue, or hiding actual predators. That is not true – it is dishonest, no matter how you paint it or how much you deny it.
About the 6 child molesters on the website, did you or 20/20 give the names to the SBC for them to check out? If so, they are guilty of serious laziness and worse. If not, then it seems that you are more interested in the media splash than the actual removal of these predators. I’ll be glad to indict the SBC if they did have the names. Please let me know.
Christa,
I just read the piece to which you linked earlier. About your situation, it seems that the BGCT knew this guy was a predator, but did the Florida State convention? If not, they certainly should have.
I am sorry this happened to you and that this guy was left to continue in ministry. There does need to be a way for the State conventions to communicate these things between each other. That is an unacceptable situation.
Art,
Yes, the SBC received certified letters about the fact that the BGCT had put my perpetrator’s name into its file of “known offenders” based on being reported by a church (i.e., the report of a victim doesn’t count) and based on either a confession or “substantial evidence” according to their published policy. (And they could have easily confirmed that by calling the BGCT.) And they also knew that another Southern Baptist minister who knew about the abuse when I was a kid had substantiated my report. As for whether or not they knew where the perpetrator was? I just find it hard to accept that, with 18 Southern Baptist leaders in 4 different states receiving that information, there was no one who thought it mattered enough to try to help me locate him (even assuming they didn’t know, which is also a bit hard to accept given how prominent his connections were). He has a common name, and without even knowing what state he was in, it was pretty difficult for me to track him on my own without any help. If it takes all the expense and energy I had to go to, then it’s way too easy for perps in this denomination to stay hidden.
You seem willing to accept the Baptist Press spin on SNAP’s apology to make me into someone “less than honest” based on the fact that the grass-roots organization I voluntarily work with misplaced a letter at their Chicago office many miles away from me. Why don’t you hold your own organization to the same standards? (In fact, you even seem to want to hold me responsible for emails that you get from SNAP – or from someone who’s a member of SNAP – I really have no clue what you’re getting – but I don’t think you’re getting emails from me unless you wrote me under a different name and expressed some interest.)
Even assuming no one at the SBC knew about that minister in Florida (despite the fact that he had worked with such prominent people), why are you willing to ignore the fact that they didn’t know about that (or even make any effort to find him after I told them about him), but you’re willing to buy the Baptist Press spin and cast me as “less than honest” for not knowing about a letter up in Chicago (and at least I made an effort to get to the bottom of it in one day’s time after I was told about it)? I apologized on behalf of the organization I work with, SNAP, even though it certainly wasn’t my job to personally go up to Chicago and search for a letter. Why doesn’t anyone apologize on behalf of the SBC? Why? Well…that’s the problem isn’t it? There is no accountability. The buck stops nowhere. It’s a voluntary affiliation with $11.3 billion in “total receipts”. Surely that’s a voluntary affiliation that’s capable of doing something about this problem. In fact, if it can compile data on the dollars that autonomous churches bring in, why can’t it compile data on the reports of sexual abuse against ministers in those autonomous churches?
I don’t presume that people consciously want to hide the issue, but what I see is an entrenched institutional denial. What I see is the same thing that Marv Knox, editor of the Baptist Standard saw…that the free-wheeling autonomous structure of southern Baptist churches “indirectly shields perpetrators.” What I see is that there is a huge loophole that perpetrators are taking advantage of and that, so far, is not being effectively dealt with. What I see is a constant deluge of emails from people telling me about their efforts to report their perpetrators to churches, state conventions and local associations, with absolutely no help. (And that’s what people tell me about even more so than the horror of the abuse is the extraordinary difficulty of trying to report the abuse and of being dealt with in unChristian, uncompassionate, and uncaring ways…and certainly in ways that don’t do anything to protect anyone else.
And actually, I have told some reporters about what I think of the SBC’s efforts. I don’t consider a few books and brochures at Lifeway and encouragement to churches to do background checks to be anywhere near enough to address the problem. In any event, the SBC can certainly speak for itself. It has plenty of public relations people to do so, and it has a great many more opportunities to address the media than I do. In fact, they have their own Baptist Press in which they can pretty much say whatever they want, and spin it however they want, and it’s funded with the monies from autonomous churches.
And yes…the Florida State Convention knew as well as did the Greater Orlando Baptist Association.
Ok, Christa, here’s the deal. If the Florida state convention knew, the local association knew and the SBC also knew, then they should have acted and to not act is a violation of Scripture. He should have been turned over to authorities. I am assuming, of course, that by “knew” you mean had evidence, because the word of one person is just that. It does need corroboration and I am sure you would acknowledge that.
You seem to think that the person who violated you was protected intentionally by the SBC power structure. If that is so, then they need to be fired.
However, if it is just that you don’t like the way we are organized, I don’t know that any amount of media attention is going to help you. You need to understand what we are, how we work, and bring ideas that fit us to the table. Insisting that we change will not help the situation.
Take this post, for instance. It was about coming up with actually feasible ideas that work with our system. I even offered to make a motion on the floor of the Convention with such offers. You see it as an attack on you and stonewalling on behalf of the SBC.
Yes. we can and must do more. That is what I want and what I am trying to do here. Doing exactly as you have suggested with no alternatives but to do exactly as you have suggested or blast the SBC in the media and on your website is just not going to work. There are tons of holes in the database idea. Read this comment section and you will find them clearly articulated by other SBC pastors. There are BETTER ways of accomplishing what needs to happen.
By the way, what about the 6 sex offenders? Did you or 20/20 give the names of those guys to the SBC prior to their names appearing in an Ethics Daily article?
Christa endorsed:
that the free-wheeling autonomous structure of southern Baptist churches “indirectly shields perpetrators.” from the neutral journalist Knox.
My question is this:
If there existed no SBC, but all the autonomous churches still existed, yet now independently, would these perpetrators be “less shielded,” and if yes, how?
Art,
You know, one of the most difficult aspects of blogging for me (and I mean this sincerely) is determining when a conversation is going nowhere and knowing when simply to let it die. Personally, a large factor in that decision for me is whether I have a sense that actual conversation is taking place—that the other party is at least listening a little bit to what I am saying rather than just retreating to predetermined talking-points.
I’ll let you determine whether my musings on this point are relevant in this thread. :-)
Art,
Bart has been right in every comment on this thread. As much as it may give some people a false security a “list” is not the answer to the kind of deep, dark evil as this is.
cb
art,
amen to what bart and cb just said.
david
I’ve been thinking this over and I’ve proposed another potential solution at my place. Thanks for a stimulating thread.
Hijacking my post, Bart?
Every time I’ve requested a letter from another church, it has been granted except in three situations. There have probably been over 300 people join ny letter the two churches I pastored. Only once has a pastor ever actually contacted me about his concerns over someone attempting to join our church. Our church has a policy that we grant letters for all those who have gone elsewhere, except when the person has been under discipline. There have been three such occasions. If each local church practiced church discipline, and if churches refused to grant letters for people that were not members in good standing, and if leadership made the effort to warn other churches, many victims would not be victims. Granted, there would be more lawsuits against the churches reporting, but if your policies are in place and your ducks are in a row, you can do the right thing. You just have to decide if the victim is more important than a potential lawsuit.
Art,
I have read on the website that Christa Brown needs to bring ideas that fit the SBC structure to the table. Yet, I have also read that Christa does not understand the structure. That is understandable because she was sexually violated as a teen in a SBC church and did not stick around long enough to know the way it operates. Please don’t see her as the one responsible to develop ideas that will work for Southern Baptist churches. I am sure the task is not easy but it would be better for you to figure out a way to solve the issue of clergy sexual abuse in the SBC churches than Christa or anyone else that is a part of SNAP. Don’t give up.
Hi to everyone
I have to say there are honest points on all sides of this.
I wish I could say otherwise, but the honest truth is that it took media exposure to get this problem acknowledged and hopefully more will be done in regards to this.
I have not had a lot of experience as far as how to bring about change, but as a victim, it is very frustrating. The way it is now, more effort is made to protect the accused minister and the victim is under attack. I had contacted the BGCT and told them of being abused since the age of 14 and I told them I even had a child from this minister. I told them of my concern for others as this man was still a Pastor in a Baptist Church. I also told them I had proof of this including a tape recording I had made of him. However nothing was done to warn the church he was at and he had already pastored another church in another state. So I know this happens and steps need to be taken. I know of 2 other cases personally of this same kind of thing, so I do not think this is a rare event as some seem to think.
There is another minister, who knew and is still trying to cover this up. Even after the knowledge was given to the few people, who I guess represent his church, they decided to leave him as the pastor. They also decided that the church body as a whole did not need to know anything about this. I believe that you cannot leave it up to each church. I have stated this before. How can you expect a church family to investigate their own beloved minister. This makes no more since than having a doctor operate on their own family member.
I know there are flaws in proposals given. It is hard to try to come up with solutions on this e-mail stuff. I agree it does no good to attack each other. I strongly believe that the SBC & BGCT & LOCAL CHURCHES AND CHRISTA BROWN AND SNAP AND OTHER VICTIMS need to cooperate with each other and put aside hurt feelings and the blame game. As Christians, is there not a way to bring some key people together in each group and sit down in a more friendly atmosphere and come up with some suggestions that might improve things. I think the safety of our children is worth it, don’t you all? I am sorry, but as is we fall short on protecting children.
I could write quite a bit on the experiences I have had and what I have gone through, just trying to find a way to protect another child, that I was told about and yet all the people I went to did not help.
I do not want to do away with or even change the basis of the SBC or BGCT, I just want some necessary steps to take place to better protect these young people, who cannot protect themselves. Many of these at risk young people do not have parents or other people, who will stand up for them and protect them. Quite honestly it is very hard for someone who has been abused to even admit it. We as Christian are suppose to be family, so it is time we start to look out for our family.
I do not know who all of you are, but hopefully some of you know enough or no someone that can do something constructive towards making things better.
Please I urge you to do so
I understand and appreciate where Christa is coming from and applaud her for her efforts. We all owe her a thank you for bringing this subject to light. Please try putting yourself in her shoes. After all her motive is to protect other children.
As for the Baptist community, I do not think this is a personal attack. Please do not take it that way, as that takes away the ability to work together on this very serious problem that really is out there.
I am sorry, I know I am not that good with words and tend to be long winded, but is anyone out there that can do more than just talk. Please it is time to take action and try to work together . I am not stating that nothing has been done, but not enough and the current system is not working.
Thanks for your time
Debbie
Chosentoo,
I am not requiring Christa to bring anything to the SBC. I am merely stating that if she wants actual productivity in the SBC becoming a more safe place for kids, then she will have to endeavor to understand us and bring ideas that actually work with our structure when she chooses to come.
This thread was intended to illicit practical ideas from Southern Baptists on this issue.
Debbie,
It did not take media exposure to make this problem something with which we are dealing. Southern Baptist churches have been taking this seriously for years. Unfortunately, not all of them do. Will media exposure help? Probably, but when it is mixed with the representation that the SBC is interested in protecting predators, it is not helpful. You implied that this was your perspective, too. That the SBC is more interested in protecting these people because they are dear to them and it is not worth the price paid by victims to out these twisted individuals.
My experience, and what I hear from so many other SBC ministers and congregations, is just the opposite. I have never known a congregation to sit by when it is found out that a minister in their employ is a child molester. I don’t know anyone who wants such a twisted individual to be their pastor. Also, I don’t know any minister who protects predators within their church. The ministers I know would, and have, pursued such incidents immediately and with great vigor. This includes one of the pastors who has commented on this blog, and I am not talking about me, either.
I am sure that Christa wants children to be safe. My questions to her, though (while running the risk of appearing insensitive or soft on pedophilia – I am NOT) are intended to discover if there are any additional motives propelling some of her actions.
Let’s go back to the media attention, for instance. I have repeatedly asked whether or not she gave the names of the 6 men who were convicted sex offenders and on an SBC website to anyone in the SBC. I have not received an answer. It seems to me that if you really want to protect kids, and that is all you want, the first thing out of your mouth when you find these people is “Morris Chapman, President and CEO of the Executive Committee of the SBC, these are the names of convicted sex offenders on this particular SBC website, and they are using your website to look for other places to serve. They are dangerous. Please remove them so that they are not able to use the resources of the SBC to facilitate their victimization of others.” I asked Dr. Chapman if he knew anything about this. He said that he received no names. He suggested another name and I have a few more names that I am going to ask about this. The way it reads when she herself describes the removal of the names in the above comment, is that when the SBC discovered the specific names, they removed them. Until that time, the names were withheld so that it could make a bigger splash in the media when the story broke.
Should predators be on our website? Absolutely not. We need to fix that, right away.
Again, we can and should do more. I want good ideas that SBC churches will buy into. Ultimately, though, the individual churches have the power to stop this. There is little power at the top and SBC churches cannot and will not submit to a top down structure. It is not who we are. Voluntary participation, just as we voluntarily participate together in missions, is the key to any group effort on this front. Illicit the churches to join together, and you will do much. Poke at the top and spin the media and you may accomplish something, but it will never be as much as you could have.
Thanks for reading and writing. I appreciate your attitude.
Hi
I am afraid that there is still too much blame game and accusations that should not be taking priorty and drawing attention away from this really serious problem.
Unfortunately, I have had personal experiences with several churches where no action has occured.
I cannot speak for anyone but myself — but my goal has been to help protect children. I tried through a number of groups including the police – child protective services – the BGCT and other Local Churches and nothing was done to protect this child. Only after trying all of these avenues did I finally end up getting a lawyer and when approached did speak to reporters, as I felt I had exhausted other options to try to bring about change. That is why I feel this way. I do think Christa’s intentions are good. I am not her and cannot speak for her, but does it really matter as long as it helps children.
The following is what I have already stated to a number of people, please understand What I want is for things to get better. Can we all work together on this. No excuses no blaming anyone for anything, just decide this is a real problem and that if we all work together a solution can occur. But everyone has to stop saying what they cannot do and start to find away to accompolish more to fix things. I am not suggesting that the way the SBC or BGCT are set up be changed, just that they find a way to compromise and work together. I feel an indpendent review board on complaints would be of help. That information about those ministers that have abused these young people be made known, so they do not go from church to church.
I think there are still a lot of other things that could be done. I do not know that the web is the best place to do this. I personally think that people from each group should sit down in a room without media and agree to talk openly and honestly with an agreement that what is said at this meeting be kept private, so fear of lawsuit and/or publicity is not there — that the meeting is just about coming up with ideas. I know there are very intelligent people in these organizations and I hope care enough to put aside past feelings and work on this. Is this possible?
Hi
I hope you are doing well.
I am writing you, as I am a Baptist and believe very strongly in God and think that it would be a good thing if you could help.
I would like to say what I want to say, but I am afraid I will say it wrong and you may take offense. I just want to find away to make things better. I do NOT want to play any blame game nor do I want to hear any defense on the way things are done now. I would like those things put aside and a true effort to make things better.
Can you please help me gain knowledge?
I do not know the process for change to occur, but would like to know. Can you please tell me what steps are now being taken? I cannot really rest until I know that steps have been taken to help protect children and a better system is set up to handle those who do have the courage to come forward about abuse they have experienced.
I want to tell you a little of what had happened to me.
I was 14 yrs old when this so called “man of God” starting touching me inappropriately and then raped me when I was 15 yrs old. He continued to abuse me for many years. I eventually became pregnant with his child (which I can prove). I was made to go before the church and confess that I was a pregnant unwed teenage girl and to ask them for forgiveness, but was not allowed to tell who the father was as that would “Hurt the Church”. This man then went on to pastor a church in Arizona and then came back to Texas and is currently a pastor in a Baptist Church. I was told NOT to tell and I thought I was doing the right thing by keeping silent. Then he was telling me about these other young girls and then I realized my silence allowed him access to other young girls. Then I knew my silence was wrong. I did go to the police and child protective services and they said they could do nothing without the name of this child and that the statue of limitation kept them from doing anything about what he did to me. I tried very hard to get that name of the girl he had told me about, but could not get him to give me this girl’s name. I even made a tape recording of him and gave it to the police, which they somehow misplaced. However, I kept a copy just in case.
I also went to the BGCT — they basically said they were sorry but they were not going to change their way of doing things. Even after I informed them that this man was still a Pastor of a church and that I had proof to back up what I was saying, they did nothing. I feel that they should have made some kind of attempt to at least warn his church of the potential danger to their children.
I believe that if the BGCT & SBC and local churches work together perhaps things could change
I know the whole thing about how Baptist churches are independent. But I also know that on a number of things they do cooperate and work together. Can this not be one of them? Is there not a way to put aside pride and hurt feelings. Can we not do more to help protect these young people who are at risk?
Not all churches do background checks or even check references. I know of at least 2 Baptist churches that do NOT do this.
Is there not a way to make it part of the rules for a church to belong to the SBC & BGCT or any other Baptist organization to be required to do these background checks and to check out where a person was before hiring him. Cannot the SBC & BGCT remove a church from it’s organization, if they knowingly allow a man who has been convicted or there is strong evidence or a confession of inappropriate sex with teenagers or children to be a minister.
Why would it be a bad thing to have a group of people to investigate allegations of abuse?
It would be hard for churches to investigate their own minister, because of the love they have for him and they will tend to believe him and not look at this with an open mind. Just as a doctor will not operate on a family member, why would you want to put the church family in such a position?
Why can we not set up a way to keep track of those who have been convicted or have confessed or have been shown to have had inappropriate sex with minors? If a minister can do this and then just move to another state, as this has happened in my case, and then put at risk yet another church’s children. There should be a list and it needs to be shared with other churches to keep this from happening.
I have read where it has been said that the police have such a list. However, there are cases that are past the statue of limitation and therefore cannot be on their list. Not to mention that churches are more likely to check with the Baptist leaders first and may not check with police.
I pray that this can be talked about with everyone wanting what is best for these innocent children and to honestly try to come up with some steps to help to protect them. Even if these actions only save one child, is it not worth the effort.
Please consider these things — Please open up your heart and mind and talk with some of the people who are trying to get things changed. Please put aside differences and compromise — come up with a solution together. If you have problems with the suggestions already made — please come up with better ones — but please do not ignore and pretend this problem does not exist. Please help to stop other people like myself from being hurt the way I was hurt. You can make a difference, please do so
I mean no disrespect — I care very much for God and his church
I am afraid there are many who have been abused and have turned away from God and this is not a good thing.
Thanks for your time
Debbie V
Debbie V,
On several levels I appreciate you. What was done to you was tragic and evil. The illicit cooperation with this apparent predator was a travesty of justice and of the church’s charge to safeguard its children. I am sorry.
I can only answer two things for you from your statement.
1. No, there is no way for any convention or association to require churches to do anything. It is set up just the opposite.
2. The other churches in the convention or association CAN and SHOULD disassociate any church who covers, sidesteps or endorses sex offenders working with minors, whether they be volunteer or professional. Caveat: This clearly needs to be proven that they understood the situation and intentionally allowed it to exist/continue.
Ultimately, the SBC, at all of its levels, can educate and encourage. That is about it. All participation in the convention is voluntary, which takes it back to the local churches. Any local church that does not pursue the safety of its children is responsible for the suffering of victims that depended on them for protection. Just as the church where you grew up is to blame. Whoever made you “confess” to a pregnancy by rape as if you were a promiscuous teenager and insisted that you protect the pastor “for the good of the church,” is criminally responsible for your situation and the victimization of all that followed in your footsteps. It all hinges on the local church. That is where the problems, and solutions, lie.
Bless you in seeking justice and healing for yourself and all the others for whom you lobby.
I wish someone could tell me that there is a way to make things better. I do not want to hear what cannot be done. I want to know what can be done and how to help with making things safer for our children.
I am sorry, I do appreciate some of your words, I just need to find a way to help make things better.
I know my knowledge is limited and my words not as good as some, but my heart is screaming out. Please if people really understood the damage to such young lives and the hurt that they live with until they die, and many die too soon, maybe more would be done.
I see too little being done. I do not know if it is out of fear of being sued, or if concern for the name of the church or if it is financial or what — I do not know. However, I do not believe change is not possible — I do not believe things should be as they are and that a way cannot be found.
I guess I have said what I felt I needed to say. I probably repeated myself too much, but I do not know what else to do to help in this matter.
Thanks for listening
Debbie
Brother Art and others: I am the SNAP coordinator for West Tennessee and Memphis areas. I am also a long time Southern Baptist. I was as a 15 year old Catholic teen sexually abused by a Catholic priest.
SNAP is not building walls, quite the contrary. We are only seek to protect our children and grandchildren. I have been involved in the middle of the Bellevue Baptist Story since the very beginning. I was the one that reported the admitted pedophile to DCS and the District Attorney’s offices when the leadership there told me they were not sure there was anything to report. Those were the words from the Administrative Pasor, David Coombs to me.
The Senior Pastor, Steve Gaines, hid the fact that he was told in June of 2006 by the pedophile minister the truth. He kept this minister on staff and in fact it has been widely reported the minister received a raise during that time. It was NOT until this story was out of their hands did they take action. And then they only put him on paid leave of absence.
They had to form a committee to do an investigation yet they denied numerous requests from the victim to meet before it became public. See the victim was the son of the minister! He was questioning the qualifications of his father continuing as a minister.
Yet Dr. Gaines could not make that determination. It has to make one wonder what Book he really reads. He had to hire outside counsel to figure that one out. What happened to the 2002 SBC resolution? What happen to the Bible? Then when the report comes out, it is full of excuses. Dr. Gaines claims he did not know what this minister’s job responsibilites were. This is the same minister that took Dr. Gaines around Bellevue the first two weeks and introduced him to the staff. Then Dr. Gaines has the gaul to say these are uncharted waters!
Let me give you some stats that might cause you some concern. There are approximately 500,000 convicted or admitted pehophiles in the U.S. Do you know that over 250,000 of them claim they REGULARLY attend church?
So when you hear from vctims like Christa, myself and SNAP; don’t say we are speaking out for the wrong reasons; think again, yet pray about it FIRST. I know I have heard from many victims that are glad there is a Christa Brown or a David Brown that are not afraid to speak out. I too have heard from many victims of SBC clergy! It is all around us.
I am a former long time member of Bellevue Baptist Church. That church is dear to me. Two of my sons were saved there and that is the church where I met my lovely wife. I loved sitting under Dr. Rogers’ teaching. But it is no longer the church it once was. There needs to be change in its senior leadership.
When I see the SBC making lame excuses about taking action to protect our childen I have to wonder if it too has changed. Oh for the record, I will be at the convention as a delegate. Trust me I will have more to say there if they will allow me.
Please no more excuses or trying to blame SNAP for bringing attention of the SBC. They have done that themselves. Remember the comment from the pedophile preacher on the 20/20 segement? It is not the “stranger danger” you need to be worried about. Time for excuses has long since run its course. It is time for action. That is what we want.
We must NOT fail our children.
In HIS Service,
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
David,
Thanks for your response. I greatly appreciate the tenor of what you write. I don’t blame SNAP for shining a light on clergy sex abuse. I state that I don’t think you understand the polity of the SBC and how to get real things done. It has to be addressed locally.
For the record, again, I am against shielding predators. I think what you did with Bellevue is the exactly correct thing to have done. Steve Gaines should have done it himself and the church should call him to account for it.
That situation, though, makes my point exactly. The effective way in which to deal with child predators is to address them in the local situation with the local congregation. People close to the situation can deal quickly and decisively with the issues. You called the authorities, things are now being done. It only takes one person to see the problem and deal with it.
Why can’t the SBC do it? Churches aren’t required to answer to the SBC. They are required to answer to the local congregations. The SBC didn’t know what was happening at Bellevue. To my knowledge, neither Morris Chapman, Augie Boto nor Frank Page tried to cover up, defend or in any other way obfuscate what happened at Bellevue. They are not for what happened there, but they are treated as if it were their personal responsibility to know what was going on in the inner workings of the staff of Bellevue – once one of our premier churches, and though it is still rocked by controversy, still a church that many watch in hopes of greatness past revisited. In spite of this, none of the leadership nor the rest of the SBC is privy to the simple information that should have been addressed.
And what shall the SBC do with Steve Gaines? We didn’t hire him, we can’t fire him. We didn’t ordain him, we can’t defrock him. We don’t have the authority to tell the church what to do or how to do it. But Bellevue’s congregation can do any and everything that needs to be done to discipline him and protect their children.
So I would echo your words and say, “Please, no more blaming the people who are not in charge of a local congregation for that congregation’s failure to protect its children.” If we are to effectively address the situation, this is where it will be addressed, as your actions have exemplified.
Art: This is in response to your email to me.
In my previous post I made two errors. If you will check the time of my post you will see it was in the wee hours of the morning. At my age it is not wise to type at those hours.
The first error was, I am no longer a SNAP representive. I meant to type “former” when I identified myself as being with SNAP. But don’t get me wrong, SNAP is doing a great job in bringing this evil crime to light. Sure some may disagree with their methods, that is fine. But they have done far more good than most will ever realize. I think we can agree to disagree.
My second error and it was just an oversight. I should have used the word “messenger” as to the SBC. I have been a Southern Baptist since May 1967 when I accepted the Lord at Neely’s Bend Baptist Church in Madison, TN. I was born and raised in Nashville. My father’s firm worked very closely with the old Baptist Sunday School Board in doing their publications. I fully understand how the SBC works.
I have been working with some leaders in the SBC and the local association. I am in the process of putting together a program that we are going to be taking to the local churches educating them about this evil crime. The Shelby County crime victim center and assistant D.A. that prosecutes them are part of the program.
As for speaking to people at the convention, I too understand the process but you must start somewhere. Remaining silent is not the answer. Hoping this crime will go away is wrong. It is all around us. We must do something. The more we speak about this, the more we bring this evil out of the darkness.
Can the SBC be doing more? Certainly. Many things have been suggested. Having a database is such a simple thing to do. What about those churches that do not have the resources to perform a thorough background check? Who do they turn to? The minister involved at the Bellevue situation did surrendered his license to the ministry but what about those that don’t?
Art: I wish I could better explain the hurt and rage that we as victims of clergy abuse feel. I know that many times it has been said to us to just turn it over to the Lord. Well for many of us, it was the Lord’s representative that raped and abused us. It is not only a physical abuse but a spirtiual/soul murder we suffer. Trust is a hard thing for us. But when victims see people like Christa, Mike Coode, Ann Brentwood, David Clohessy, myself and other victims speaking out, they have hope. They want to believe they can be believed, loved and grow through their abuse. But that is a slow process. I was slient about my abuse for over 35 years. And it took another 9 years before I could really tell the truth. No one on this earth can do more harm to me than what that priest did to me on the floor of that cabin at Camp Marymount that fall Sunday night in 1961. I do not want to see or hear of one more child being sexually abused, especially by a clergy member.
In closing, I do praise the Lord for where I am at today and for HIM to allow me to suffer the abuse I have. When I reflect on what HE suffered for me; what I went thru was nothing. I count it all Praise and Blessing to have endured it. Because of the fire I was allowed to endure I have the courage to speak out and not be afraid. I try to speak out in love and yet there are times that doesn’t work. Some just don’t want to hear or believe what we have to say. Dr. Page said some of us are out for personal gain. He could not have been more wrong. Well that is their problem, I am not going anywhere and as long as the Lord tarries, I will continue to speak out in hopes of ending this evil crime.
Please be in prayer with me. We cannot fail our children.
David Brown
davidbrown@bigriver.net
901/569-4500
David,
Again, I see so much in what you write with which I agree.
Do I specifically understand what it is to be a victim of clergy abuse? No. I can’t imagine, however, any situation that is more of a betrayal than that of clergy abuse.
Could the SBC be doing more? Yes.
Should we be silent? No.
Should we just hope it goes away? No.
I am thrilled you understand the SBC process. I am praying you are able to bring something valuable to us.
Art
HI
I wanted to say thank you to David Brown.
I am glad you are there and have spoken up.
I agree with him very much
The reason I am doing as well as I am is because, I have finally been able to talk about what had happened and it helped a great deal to know I am not alone and it is okay to break the silence.
I am extremely thankful to Miguel Prats with SNAP and Christa Brown, as it is a direct result of them coming forward that I was able to come forward myself.
The local churches are not doing what they should nor is SBC or the BGCT. I had been told by the ministers at different churches that I did try to get help from to either “let the past be in the past” “leave it in God’s Hands” My problem is I “haven’t forgiven yet” Not a single one of these ministers made any attempt to warn this other church of what that Pastor had done and my fear of him hurting someone else, due to what he had told me.
I cannot let the past be the past, as it is NOT past, as long as he is still a Pastor in a church where he has the ability to hurt other young girls. Also as my silence allowed him to be able to do this, I feel really guilty over this and I feel the need to do more and to speak up to prevent others from being hurt as well as trying to let others know it is okay to speak up, that is the only ways things well change.
To say leave it in God’s hands, well doing nothing is not leaving it in God’s hands. God has and does use people to do his will. I strongly believe that David, Miguel, Christa and many others are in fact doing what God would have them do.
As far as telling me that I have a problem, because I have not forgiven. Well that is a clear picture of how the local churches and probably the SBC & BGCT have this issue in their minds.
From all that I have heard no one wants to take responsibility and stand up and try to change things within the Baptist Leaders. In fact I was told directly by the BGCT that they were sorry for what I went through, but they were not going to do anything.
Art, you have pretty much said the same thing. You are sorry for what we have gone through, but you do not think that it is anyone’s responsibility. You pretty much state that the local churches are the ones that have to take care of this issue, but they do NOT and I doubt they will without more encouragement to do so and I think this is everyone’s responsibility.
I do not know how to get accomplished what needs to be done and I and the others NEED HELP. People need to stand up NOW and try to bring about some changes.
I have tried to go through Baptist leaders and churches to try to do something about this man and the current system, but that did not work. So when you have tried to do it the way you thought it should be done and that does NOT work, what do you do?
I have also found out that in the churches I have had experience with there are just a few that actually know and control what goes on in the church. Therefore the entire church body does not normally know about such sensitive things as abuse or accusation of abuse and therefore lack the knowledge to make an educated decision on such things.
I think this needs to be something that everyone needs to work together on including Local Churches, SBC, BGCT, SNAP and other Victim organizations as well as those who know and can speak regarding this.
Please open your mind and heart. Please people need to stop saying what Cannot work and start to come up with what can work. The current system is NOT working. We need things to improve. No more children need to be hurt due to people just doing nothing.
I know I do not really have the best words to explain this, but hopefully people understand what I am trying to say
Thanks again for listening
Debbie Vasquez