Messier Mo
Apr 10th, 2007 | By art rogers | Category: SBCThe situation in Missouri just got messier. The Executive Committee just fired Missouri’s Executive Director, David Clippard. [HT: John Stickley]
Regular readers will remember my first foray into Missouri Politics, with Messy Mo.
Some tangential links:
Darrin Patrick interviewed by MSNBC [HT: Steve McCoy]
Along with Steve’s article about Darrin and the Bottleworks Bonanza.
Recently, an article in STL Today about “Missouri’s most powerful Baptist,” Roger Moran.
On a personal note, I have never met David Clippard. Those that I know, who do know him, I greatly respect. They all speak VERY highly of him.
What can I say? Texas, Tennessee, Virginia, the Carolinas… Missouri is the messiest of them all. That’s saying alot.
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Art, I’m sorry to hear about this development. I’ve known the situation in Missouri has been bad. But, I’m curious; you said, “the Carolinas.” I’m in South Carolina, and praise the Lord, things aren’t messy here. There’s been a great spirit of cooperation here for some time. Unless you know something I don’t. Did you mean North Carolina? Is there something we need to be on the lookout for? I don’t have deep inroads anymore (as if I ever really did) so maybe there is an undercurrent I haven’t gotten wind of yet.
Now, all that could change soon, I guess. Our well-loved Executive Director is retiring. His replacement is currently the Associate Executive Director in Missouri, Dr. Jim Austin. Coincidence? I pray to God so. I’m not yet willing to say that just because he’s more than likely the next Director of the SCBC that trouble will soon follow. But I certainly will be praying that’s the case.
GP,
I was in Charlotte for a while and everyone there told me about years of bitter division. My pastor at the time (I was Student and Family minister) said that he used to visit homes and the first question out of people’s mouth would be, “Which side of the divide are you on?” They would consider the church only on the basis of the political stance of the staff – even if they had been visiting for weeks and not being able t tell from anyone they’ve met.
Of course, I wasn’t in SC. It sounds like it is much like OK there. It is so nice here. I don’t think Austin will bring bad will with him. You should have many years of peace ahead.
No one reading this blog posting (or Wade’s dated April 11) should form any final opinions of the matter in Missouri–or in Texas, Tennessee, Virginia, or the Carolinas–either today or in the future without direct involvement or further investigation.
I served in Missouri, and on the MBC executive board, during its debacle of 2001–and now serve in Texas (and as a member of the BGCT’s Committee on Convention Business). First-hand information always is better, is available, and is not refutable. Reports about the MBC situation of 2001 and immediately before fall short of telling the full truth (and definitely are slanted), and reports about BGCT happenings since 2006 are incomplete as well (and not as bad as some have judged them to be; again, first-hand information always is better).
Someone–anyone–please do your homework, and all of it, when reporting about state Baptist conventions!
David,
I don’t think it is fair to say I haven’t done my homework.
My reference to the other states (lumping SC in with NC excluded) is a well known fact that there is division dating back to the resurgence – TN is also suing its (former) entities for leaving.
My links are to people speaking in their own words. The MO EC has issued a statement, effectively saying that they fired Clippard and wouldn’t be talking about it further.
Darrin Patrick was speaking for himself.
Steve McCoy, friend of Patrick and Clippard, was speaking first hand for himself.
Roger Moran was speaking for himself in a first person interview.
As for my first hand information, I have spoken to a few people who are close to the situation – directly involved – but they asked not to be quoted. So I didn’t.
Obviously, the EC isn’t talking, so interviewing them is not a possibility. Interviewing Clippard was not going to happen as anything he might have said could have been used against him. Now its just in poor taste, since he has just been fired.
Still, the firing of an executive director makes this mess messier than the rest – in my opinion.
Art:
The time signature on my first comment here this morning reads “3:15 am”–but the time actually was 4:15 instead (blogsite clock didn’t spring forward when the rest of us sprung forward?!).
Earlier, after I clicked on “submit,” I thought that my comments might be considered a criticism of either you or your work–which they are not. We’ve never met in person, but dialoged by email and blog postings many times over the past year, and I consider you a friend and accurate blogger. Instead, my comments seek to address the inaccuracies which persist when such matters are reported merely because–in my opinion–whatever further investigative work which might have been done, particularly by Baptist newspaper editors or their staffs (MBC Pathway, Baptist Standard, BP, ABP, or anyone), is neglected or when slanted journalism is presented as the truth and nothing but the truth. We both know that the majority of Southern Baptists, if they know any recent news about Baptist happenings, still get that information from printed state newspapers and not from blogsites.
You’ve done well. And I’ve done well, in my opinion, to give the reminder above–though it easily could be misunderstood this time. I still say, “Everyone, do all your homework when it comes to state Baptist convention matters.”
I hope your area gets some warm, sunshiny springtime weather today!
. . . And, this morning just prior to visiting your blogsite, I emailed a similar note to an editor of a Baptist newsource regarding the same specific story suggesting that further investigation or a follow-up story be done in order to present the full truth about the matter (I know that there is more to tell about the MBC’s happenings during recent years because I experienced it).
Art:
Hey, I typed a second note just now–which should have appeared above the third one now posted–but it isn’t displayed yet!
In case that comment has gone off into cyberspace never to be seen again, I’ll repeat that my first comment of this morning was not at all meant to be a criticism of either you or your work–as I know by now that you only post what you know to be the truth and after working hard to get the info that you post. My first comment, instead, was a caution to any and all (particularly the editors and staffs of state Baptist newspapers–still the source of news for most Southern Baptists) to tell the whole story after doing further research and interviewing people first-hand, and to avoid the slant which so often appears in those reports. I know for a fact that complete investigation and interviewing doesn’t happen, and that the truth is presented incorrectly (again, been in the executive sessions and private meetings of committees–ones that no one should know specifics about unless further investigative reporting is done).
You know that I appreciate you and your ministry–and I encourage you to stay faithfully at reporting what you know at your site. Forgive me if I made my earlier case in a confusing way!
I won’t comment on the MBC because I don’t know all of the details.
But I watched the video and I think the Journey is right on. We need to go where the people are. Thanks for the link.
I’m just about done with all of this. I don’t think I will be in San Antonio. I don’t know if it is worth it. :(
Kevin -
Thou shalt not cancel your trip to San Antonio. You are one of the fun ones to have around. It won’t be right to not have you there. Bring your guitar, we’ll get a group together and serenade SBC bigwigs outside their hotel rooms at 3 a.m. Keep them off their game for the annual meeting. :)
Please don’t stay away.
Brother Art,
Just got to the dance after being gone for a trip in the NC Mountains. Took my family to Linville Caverns and what a trip it was. More on that later.
As you stated to Brother David, you mis-stated the Carolinas division. It would only be in NC. I served in SC for some time and found that convention to be united in every effort. If you will remember, the EKG came from their past Executive Director. It was implemented in SC under his leadership with Reggie McNeal, I believe, as the architect. (If he wasn’t, his finger prints are all over it.) North Carolina is the one I believe you are referencing. There is a great division here, for the simple reason those who clearly align with the SBC are now in leadership and those that do not are desiring to take the colleges and universities and all the other agencies. Therefore, I would have to conclude with you NC is divided, but we are not in a mess.
Blessings,
Tim
i would echo tim’s words about nc to include the same about tn. yes, we are going thru a lawsuit with belmont. and, yes, conservatives want the state level to be more conservative, and they want dr. porch to leave. but, it’s not a mess. 90% of the churches in tn are conservative and want the change. i really dont see a lot of fighting and ugliness at the different state meetings. i do see people who are passionate and want change and encourage change. but, very few are actually acting ugly about it.
i just pray that the change will occur. that tn will become more conservative in it’s leadership.
david
David,
Thanks for the clarification – all three of them. :)
Tim,
Point well taken, but messiness is a matter of opinion, I suppose. If you get into lawsuits over control of entities, you will perhaps change your tune.
Kevin,
I do hope to see you in San Antonio. The veterans do have that down. Convention is a great place to see your buddies that are spread out all over the nation. I understand if you don’t. Frankly, that comment reflects the Missional Cooperation post I had just written.
Dorcas,
You are trouble waiting to happen. :)
Art:
No trouble.
No trouble.
No trouble . . .
;–))
Art -
Six words about me were never more truthfully spoken. :)
Brother Art,
You are correct about the lawsuits. However, I do not see it happening in NC. I know that I will not vote for the convention to go to court.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim-
Now that is something that we can both agree on! :-)
Blessings
Micah
Psalm 67
State conventions that file lawsuits over such things are failing to ask themselves what they are really losing if the institutions go their own way. Yes, they have millions of dollars invested down through the years, but they can’t recoup that money. They can, perhaps, win back control of the institution, but then what do they have? A liberal institution that doesn’t really want to be affiliated with them, yet that is stuck in an affiliation with them. And if you think turning seminaries around from liberalism is a mess, imagine trying to hire a conservative English Department, Fine Arts Department, Biology Department, etc.!
Messy, messy, messy.
For my two cents worth, I believe that the lawsuits are not only wrong, but they are also unwise. The departure of these institutions may be a gift from God to allow some state conventions to slim down and refocus.
Bart-
I don’t often agree with you and Tim in the same comment string, but I agree wholeheartedly with you on this one. Let them go is what I keep trying to say here in Missouri. Unfortunately most don’t seem to agree with me. Most in leadership, that is.
Bart, Tim & Micah,
Count me in on that. Bart, you and I have agreed on some things from time to time and disagreed on other things. I have never been more in agreement with anything you have ever said.
Art
I feel a group hug coming on. :-)
“Unfortunately most don’t seem to agree with me. Most in leadership, that is.”
At the time that the agencies chose to exit the MBC, people in elected leadership roles on the executive board–some of whom still are in such roles–vehemently disagreed with the agencies’ actions, and the board discussions were very vocal ones! (The feelings and reactions, I imagine, were similar to those at the time that Baylor University’s leadership exited it from its then-existing relationship with the BGCT.) There probably wasn’t as much listening taking place as was needed–but it wouldn’t have mattered, as folks were not and are not in agreement with the agencies’ basis for exiting (and a certain degree of denial existed and continues to–”Our attitudes and approaches could not possibly be the reason for all of this . . . !”).
As the 2001 annual meeting of the MBC approached, I predicted that one yet-to-depart agency also would choose to exit the convention–but, its leadership hadn’t made that choice by the start-date of the convention. During a meeting on the first evening of the convention, I spoke with the president of that agency and told him what my prediction had been. His reply was that that agency’s leadership indeed hadn’t chosen to exit–and that it was known to be a “choice” agency to seek to retain–but also that “no one had better come after it” or its leadership would indeed make other choices. To date, that agency still is in the MBC fold–and under the same president’s leadership.
The 2001 annual meeting of the MBC was the saddest I’ve ever experienced, as the majority of messengers present easily dismissed biblical mandates regarding not suing Christian brothers (secular news reporters were present; they could not believe what they were seeing or hearing; some of them probably were lost people, and may still be today). At its conclusion, I attended the subsequent executive board meeting in the dining hall of the headquarters hotel, looked around the room at those now serving on the board, knew where that group would take the convention, and immediately walked to my room in the same hotel to email a note to the Baptist Building indicating my resignation from the board. I had no intention of being a part of what has transpired since under the leadership of those folks and ones since. That’s the “most in leadership” mentioned above.
Those were interesting times, to say the least.
Brother Art, Bart, David Troublefield, and Micah,
Group hug!!
ugh, ugh, ugh, … ok, that is enough. I feel like getting my guitar and strumming kum-ba-ya (sp)
Now, if Bart and I could speak to you about the SBC Leadership.
:>)
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
SBC Leadership? I love most of ‘em. :)
Tim:
I’ll trade my hugs for a “How do we work together to fix this thing, and to keep it permanently resolved for Christ’s sake?” I can’t sing anyway.
Blessings back at ya today, brother!