Bless you brother.

Bob

Bob,

The article only addressed whether or not we could get along in the SBC – and Reformed theology was one of the dividing lines discussed. I did not discuss, nor attempt to discuss, whether or not it valid, as you have done here. I have intentionally avoided that line of discussion for the entirety of my blogging.

Which brings me to the answer to your question: No, I don’t have another place to discuss the merits of Calvinism. The blogosphere is so full of pro/anti Calvinistic places for discussion, and they are generally filled with MUCH vitriol. I avoid it like the plague.

If you think Calvinism gets it wrong – fine. Absolutely your privilege (and a view shared by a huge majority of Southern Baptists), and again, I thank you for recognizing that it is a tertiary issue within the bounds of cooperation. Still you have said some things about what Piper believes – that he thinks his salvation is dependent on him/his works – that I don’t think are accurate representations of the man.

Now, I don’t know John Piper. I have read some of his writings, perused his website and listened to a few of his sermons. Having done this, I am absolutely confident that he would deny virtually everything you have said he believes. I have heard/read him affirm grace alone and perseverance of the saints. I have never heard/read him to present God as a narcissistic, self loving sadist.

You have your opinion of that and, clearly, mine is different. Whatever we all believe about Calvinism (or drinking in moderation, PPL or the stewardship of Kingdom monies), I think we owe it to one another to represent accurately what others believe.

On that count, one of three things has happened here.

1. You have misrepresented John Piper intentionally. I don’t believe this to be true. It sounds to me that you are sincere and I don’t want to believe this about anyone.

2. You have misunderstood John Piper’s comments about working out our salvation. Clearly, I think this is what has happened. I think Piper believes that falling away from a confession of Christ is not the loss of salvation, but the revelation that the person never had salvation. Similar to what the Apostle John wrote in 1 John 2:19.

3. You have represented him in an exactly accurate way and that he is intentionally misleading everyone about what he truly believes. This would make John Piper a cult leader, and not someone with whom I would care to cooperate.

Whatever has happened here, it is indeed time to move away from John Piper. He is not, the validity of Calvinism is not, the subject of this article or blog.

Thank you for your congenial spirit even in disagreement and I thank you for being willing to move on.

I introduced the issues in Calvinism because it was raised in the interview. I appreciate the interaction with Benji, Debbie, and Timmy. I wish to offer an answer to Timmy, and I will move on. Do you have another place we can continue to explore these issues?

Blessings to all,

Bob
_____________

Timmy,

Please understand, I am in no way suggesting that as believers we are not called to a life of love and obedience toward God. Believers in Christ are to live to reflect the glory of God.

We are indeed to “work OUT our own salvation with fear and trembling.” But we are not commanded to “work FOR our own salvation.” Recognizing that “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast,” does not ignore that “we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” However, note that Ephesians 2:10 says, “should” and not “must” or “will.” Good works are not a condition of salvation nor do they offer assurance.

The scriptures teach that the assurance of our justification by faith apart from works sets us free to love, obey and serve God. Reformed soteriology gets it backward. It teaches that apart from our love, our obedience and our works for God, there is no certainty of justification. But proclaiming salvation by God’s grace does not encourage ungodly living.

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age.” (Titus 2:11-12)

For Piper and other Calvinists, only the “elect” from eternity past can be saved. Believing in the death and resurrection of Christ for salvation is not the condition for salvation (according to Piper), but rather the evidence of election. One must first be “born-again,” and this is the result of election apart from faith in Christ.

For this kind of Calvinist there is no assurance of salvation in the cross of Christ. It is always possible that Christ did not die for John Piper. It is always possible that Christ did not die for you. Believing in Christ’s death and resurrection will not save is what they teach. Only those who endure to the very end are saved. And you cannot be sure you will endure to the end, until the end. Ultimately Piper’s brand of Calvinism holds that YOU WILL BE SAVED OR DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY BECAUSE YOU WERE SAVED OR DAMNED FROM ALL ETERNITY.

This is in my opinion a perversion of the grace of Christ.

Bob

Sorry that I have been out today. Many things going on today and family in as well.

Byron,

It would seem that denominational loyalty would be the key to you evaluating someone as authoritative, authentic and credible. if Dr. Storms is none of those things, then the evaluation of such, in my opinion, should be based on his ability to “rightly divide the Word of Truth.”

Bob,

Thanks for recognizing that this is about the interview and not the validity of Reformed Theology nor about John Piper. Also, I appreciate your last statement about unity in spite of disagreement of tertiary issues.

Jason,

This is something that I hope to tease Wade about in light of the whole membership issue. We have removed from our roll “Non-Resident” members. In my opinion, there is no such thing.

To answer your question though, I believe that Dr. Storms is traveling and speaking most every weekend and not able to attend a local church regularly anyway. That, however, is pure speculation on my part.

Blessings to all. I pray that your celebration of the Resurrection tomorrow will be filled with joy and that the gospel is proclaimed by all of you throughout the day and week ahead.

Just curious, how does it work to be a member of a church so far from where one lives? Seems like it would be hard to be a member as Paul envisions it in 1 Cor. Just curious.

A Christian’s obedience is intrisinically related to the sovereignty of God. When God commands us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, we are immediately told that it is because God is at work in us both to will and to do according to His good pleasure. Paul said that it was “by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace was toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, thought it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me” (1 Cor. 15:10). When the writer of Hebrews warns against apostasy and calls believers to press on to maturity, he adds, “This we will do if God permits“. Finally, by adding to our faith such qualities as described in 2 Pet. 1:5-8 Peter tell us that such practice (e.g. obedience) of these qualities one will never “fall” but will “richly provide an entrance into the eternal kingdom . . .”.

Inasmuch as God is sovereign in our salvation, he is sovereign in our sanctification. Those whom God has called, he has santified and glorified. For God made Christ “our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Cor. 1:30). Piper is not boasting in his obedience apart from absolute dependence upon God. Rather, he is glorying in the God who has provided precious promises and enabling grace that allow us to be partakers of his divine nature (2 Pet. 1:3). The completed work of the cross leaves no room for boasting by man either in turning to Christ in faith or living the life of faith. As we have received the Lord Jesus, so we walk in Him (Col.2:6).

The “contingency” you speak of assumes that our obedience is somehow unguarded and alien to God’s sovereignty. Those who view that God is not sovereign in salvation would be consistent to say that God is not sovereign in santification. Those who view that God did not effectually call His sheep to himself have every right to say that obedience is not guaranteed by the indwelling and effectual work of the Holy Spirit. Those who hold a view of eternal security which does not include a persevering of the believer to the end by God’s purpose do not take into account such Scriptures aforementioned.

With that said, I believe you have sorely misunderstood Piper. Piper is not seeking evidence in addition to the cross. The santification and good works subsequent to conversion has been purchased at the cross and thereby included. We obey because we love him; we love him because he first loved us.

When you said, “What John Piper looks to for assurance of his salvation – John Piper,” you were almost correct. It is not John Piper but God in John Piper.

Bob

Accordingly, the “security” that John Piper has been saved, is saved, and will be saved is all of God, but part of the “evidence” that John Piper looks to in order to be “sure” that he is secure is in the good works he does in the present.

And yes, it is possible for John Piper to backslide so that he becomes “unsure” of his salvation while all the while remaining “secure” in Christ.

* For those of you who might see some error in my representation of Piper’s theology, please correct me if I am wrong.

(end quote)

Great! Benji, I agree that you have accurately presented what John Piper looks to for assurance of his salvation – John Piper. John Piper is “sure” that he is secure in his good works and “unsure” of his salvation when he “backslides.” Because John Piper and Calvinists hold that Christ died only for the elect, they cannot look to the cross of Christ alone for assurance. They must seek other evidence in addition to the cross. As Piper writes:

“Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith.”

For the true Calvinist, salvation is always “contingent” upon odebience. Again, Rome has no problem with this position.

Bob