Comments on: Read and Compare http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/ Let these stones be a witness to what we have done here this day. Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:54:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Bryan Riley http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4455 Bryan Riley Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:04:57 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4455 I really enjoy Nathan's writings, but I found your post on the myth of the majority as more edifying than his. I don't fully know why; perhaps it was the visual thing. :) I don't think it was that, though, as I am more of a word guy. I really enjoy Nathan’s writings, but I found your post on the myth of the majority as more edifying than his. I don’t fully know why; perhaps it was the visual thing. :) I don’t think it was that, though, as I am more of a word guy.

]]> By: David Phillips http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4445 David Phillips Fri, 16 Mar 2007 22:31:23 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4445 Alan, I think your suggestion is great! We should all do a series entitled, "Look What God is Doing!" and highlight the movement of God in a missional way in our churches, in large churches, small churches, medium churches...who knows, maybe we can get some ideas from each other... Alan,

I think your suggestion is great! We should all do a series entitled, “Look What God is Doing!” and highlight the movement of God in a missional way in our churches, in large churches, small churches, medium churches…who knows, maybe we can get some ideas from each other…

]]> By: Cyle Clayton http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4428 Cyle Clayton Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:46:01 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4428 I like Nathan's article, and I agree that we need to agree upon what we are going to agree upon. My question is, "Who's going to lead the way for us to agree?" I don't have a problem with the currrent BF & M. Let's do something in San Antonio to establish it as the standard of orthodoxy for our convention. Maybe if agreement upon it were required for membership in the SBC we could really use it as the standard for everything from the IMB's policies to Southwestern's hiring and firing practices. Lead the way, Art. I like Nathan’s article, and I agree that we need to agree upon what we are going to agree upon. My question is, “Who’s going to lead the way for us to agree?” I don’t have a problem with the currrent BF & M. Let’s do something in San Antonio to establish it as the standard of orthodoxy for our convention. Maybe if agreement upon it were required for membership in the SBC we could really use it as the standard for everything from the IMB’s policies to Southwestern’s hiring and firing practices. Lead the way, Art.

]]> By: Ron West http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4419 Ron West Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:48:17 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4419 I would also say that many conservatives in the early years were in the same boat as David Troublefield in Missouri. The didn't change, the definitions did. The words moderate and liberal were used in ways that had nothing to do with theology. I believe you have met the editor of the state paper in Missouri that leads the attacks on behalf of Moran and the other leaders there. I would also say that many conservatives in the early years were in the same boat as David Troublefield in Missouri. The didn’t change, the definitions did. The words moderate and liberal were used in ways that had nothing to do with theology.
I believe you have met the editor of the state paper in Missouri that leads the attacks on behalf of Moran and the other leaders there.

]]> By: Ron West http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4413 Ron West Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:40:25 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4413 Art, Thank you for sharing Nathan Finn’s essay with the regular readers of your blog. I found it very insightful and agree with almost all of his points. I was especially impressed with his willingness to use the word inerrantist to describe many of the groups who are excluded from SBC leadership even though we were told the movement was about inerrancy. I can’t imagine many of the leaders of SEBTS agreeing with him. Although agreeing with him on many points I would have started the first paragraph slightly different. I would have said, “I am an unashamed theological conservative and inerrantist. I am NOT glad the pseudo-conservatives won the battle of the 1980’s and 1990’s. I disagree with most resurgent Baptists about most issues related to convention politics.” From there on he is pretty close to perfect. He stated the first group of inerrantists to move away from the larger movement were those who were sympathetic to the status quo or were critical of some personalities or tactics. I would not say they moved away, I would say they were excluded. The conservative resurgence began as an ego driven movement by super church pastors who could not understand why the entire convention didn’t obey them like the members of their own churches. Then it became an attack mechanism that went after any conservative who would not support their political machine. This would include Russell Dilday, Keith Parks, the WMU and hundreds of missionaries, pastors and laypersons who said they would remain true to the Bible and not the words of men. The heart of the resurgence was placed into the hands of men like Roger Moran, T.C. Pinckney, Ron Wilson and Ollin Collins to do the bidding of the leaders of the resurgence. I will have to bookmark his blog. He, like you, makes the kind of thoughtful points that need to be read by more people in our convention. Art,
Thank you for sharing Nathan Finn’s essay with the regular readers of your blog. I found it very insightful and agree with almost all of his points. I was especially impressed with his willingness to use the word inerrantist to describe many of the groups who are excluded from SBC leadership even though we were told the movement was about inerrancy. I can’t imagine many of the leaders of SEBTS agreeing with him.
Although agreeing with him on many points I would have started the first paragraph slightly different. I would have said, “I am an unashamed theological conservative and inerrantist. I am NOT glad the pseudo-conservatives won the battle of the 1980’s and 1990’s. I disagree with most resurgent Baptists about most issues related to convention politics.” From there on he is pretty close to perfect.
He stated the first group of inerrantists to move away from the larger movement were those who were sympathetic to the status quo or were critical of some personalities or tactics. I would not say they moved away, I would say they were excluded. The conservative resurgence began as an ego driven movement by super church pastors who could not understand why the entire convention didn’t obey them like the members of their own churches. Then it became an attack mechanism that went after any conservative who would not support their political machine. This would include Russell Dilday, Keith Parks, the WMU and hundreds of missionaries, pastors and laypersons who said they would remain true to the Bible and not the words of men. The heart of the resurgence was placed into the hands of men like Roger Moran, T.C. Pinckney, Ron Wilson and Ollin Collins to do the bidding of the leaders of the resurgence.
I will have to bookmark his blog. He, like you, makes the kind of thoughtful points that need to be read by more people in our convention.

]]> By: David Troublefield http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4409 David Troublefield Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:40:26 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4409 I've inquired tonight at Wade's blog about the term "moderate"--what is meant by the word at that site. Maybe it means the same thing here that it means there. I used to be a biblical/theological conservative--until, in Missouri as member of the MBC executive board, I voted my well-informed conscience before the Lord in an executive session; then, instantly and overnight, I and the board majority on the issue became "moderates" and eventually "liberals". It was wierd; I didn't feel the change occur at all; the content of my Bible studies still were the same, I believed just as much of the Bible and missions and evangelism and CP as before; I was still a Christian . . . Is it state Baptist newspaper editors who are granted authority to decide who's a moderate and who's a conservative--or long-time convention-attending pastors leading declining congregations--or, organizers of religio-political groups of church messengers, or who? It seems I'm missing something important here (and being a bit sarcastic/facetious--but this thing needs to get talked-out and resolved; and, I'm still a biblical/theological conservative--no matter what they say!). I’ve inquired tonight at Wade’s blog about the term “moderate”–what is meant by the word at that site. Maybe it means the same thing here that it means there.

I used to be a biblical/theological conservative–until, in Missouri as member of the MBC executive board, I voted my well-informed conscience before the Lord in an executive session; then, instantly and overnight, I and the board majority on the issue became “moderates” and eventually “liberals”. It was wierd; I didn’t feel the change occur at all; the content of my Bible studies still were the same, I believed just as much of the Bible and missions and evangelism and CP as before; I was still a Christian . . .

Is it state Baptist newspaper editors who are granted authority to decide who’s a moderate and who’s a conservative–or long-time convention-attending pastors leading declining congregations–or, organizers of religio-political groups of church messengers, or who? It seems I’m missing something important here (and being a bit sarcastic/facetious–but this thing needs to get talked-out and resolved; and, I’m still a biblical/theological conservative–no matter what they say!).

]]> By: Art Rogers http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4407 Art Rogers Thu, 15 Mar 2007 00:42:35 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4407 Robin, There are more labels flying from all directions than we can "shake a stick at," so to speak. I get the impression you think I am picking on one side, but not the other... the labels you quote, "Nathan's post was great," "heed his words." If this is true, let me clarify for you. All derogatory labels are bad, no matter from whom they come. We all need to quit drawing lines and start working together. art Robin,

There are more labels flying from all directions than we can “shake a stick at,” so to speak. I get the impression you think I am picking on one side, but not the other… the labels you quote, “Nathan’s post was great,” “heed his words.”

If this is true, let me clarify for you. All derogatory labels are bad, no matter from whom they come.

We all need to quit drawing lines and start working together.

art

]]> By: Robin Foster http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4404 Robin Foster Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:29:59 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4404 Alan I can remembering suggesting a blog fast back in September. It did not catch on. Art I can understand your setiments on the labels of moderate and liberal. I personally don't care for spooky fundamentalism, junior pastor, and others. Nathan's post was great. May we all heed his words. God Bless Alan

I can remembering suggesting a blog fast back in September. It did not catch on.

Art

I can understand your setiments on the labels of moderate and liberal. I personally don’t care for spooky fundamentalism, junior pastor, and others.

Nathan’s post was great. May we all heed his words.

God Bless

]]> By: Alan Cross http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4403 Alan Cross Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:09:50 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4403 Great stuff going on, David. I love it when folks talk about what God is doing at their churches. I think we need WAY more of that type of discussion. It sharpens us and gets the rest of us moving. So, since my church has 250 folks, we should be doing 5 times what you are doing! Ouch! That's convicting! Keep it up, bro, and we praise God with you! Art, what if we all took a month long blog fast from SBC stuff to ONLY highlight what God is doing through all of our churches on a missional basis, and to tell stories of ways that we see God moving in other churches? Would that have any type of effect leading up to the convention? Would it bring unity around the main thing? I know that the purpose of everyone having their own blog is so that they can write on what they want to, but that might be a neat collective project for us SBC bloggers. I wonder . . . Great stuff going on, David. I love it when folks talk about what God is doing at their churches. I think we need WAY more of that type of discussion. It sharpens us and gets the rest of us moving. So, since my church has 250 folks, we should be doing 5 times what you are doing! Ouch! That’s convicting! Keep it up, bro, and we praise God with you!

Art, what if we all took a month long blog fast from SBC stuff to ONLY highlight what God is doing through all of our churches on a missional basis, and to tell stories of ways that we see God moving in other churches? Would that have any type of effect leading up to the convention? Would it bring unity around the main thing? I know that the purpose of everyone having their own blog is so that they can write on what they want to, but that might be a neat collective project for us SBC bloggers. I wonder . . .

]]> By: Art Rogers http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4400 Art Rogers Wed, 14 Mar 2007 20:04:06 +0000 http://www.twelvewitnesses.com/2007/03/14/nathan-finn-art-rogers-varities-of-sbc-conservatism-myth-of-the-majority/#comment-4400 Geoff, I think that you may be splitting something that is one thing. In my mind, the way we speak to each other is part and parcel of the way we treat each other. If splitting is unavoidable, and it may be, then the split will not be like when the moderates left, but will be a shattering the likes of which all the king's horsemen and all the king's men will not be able to put together again. It behooves us to try. Hard. Geoff,

I think that you may be splitting something that is one thing. In my mind, the way we speak to each other is part and parcel of the way we treat each other.

If splitting is unavoidable, and it may be, then the split will not be like when the moderates left, but will be a shattering the likes of which all the king’s horsemen and all the king’s men will not be able to put together again.

It behooves us to try. Hard.

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