Paul Littleton addresses the Memphis Declaration from the point of view of someone not in Memphis.
Can you sign it if you aren’t guilty of some of the confessions?
Paul’s answer at Caught in the Middle.
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- Author: art rogers
- Published: May 12th, 2006
- Category: SBC
- Comments: 16
Memphis Non-Attendee
Dorcas
on May 12th, 2006
@ 3:11 pm:
Art-
I was going to link to that but you beat me to it! It is definitely an interesting read.
tim rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 3:35 pm:
Brother Art,
This is the first time I think that I have posted on your blog. I am not certain how I want to post what I feel right now.
I have been following the Memphis Declaration and I must confess that on the surface it sounds good and something that I desire to be part of. However, as I dig into the blog world and see comments going back and forth and watch what appears to be political manuevers I am not so certain. I do agree with Paul Littleton’s assessment but I do not think I am so quick to sign on. I know 3 of the attenders through being in school with two of them and knowing two of them personally. (yes i can add, i know two personally and of those two one i was in school with, the other one that i do not know personally i was in school with) These three men from what I have observed and know of them are very politically savy individuals. While I do desire to be part of the spirit of the Memphis Declaration, I simply cannot bring myself to adhere to a political organization that on the surface appears to want what is best for the entire SBC but underneath is only advancing their political careers within the SBC, or are trying to get vengence for some hurt of the past propogated by those in leadership now.
I am not saying that is what is happening with the Memphis Declaration, I am just saying I do not know.
Paul/Mary Burleson
on May 12th, 2006
@ 3:59 pm:
Art, I just commented on Paul Littleton’s Post about the Memphis group and would like to say that TIM has just demonstrated the heart of what I said. I won’t say it again but were you to read it you’d see what I mean. Both Paul/Tim reflect to me what is so good, as do all of you guys, in the young men/women in church leadership today. Keep it up…
Paul Burleson
art rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 4:29 pm:
Tim, (my long lost cousin Tim?)
Many noted the presence of “old warhorses” of the resurgence. I can assure you that you are not the only one who noticed their presence.
I can only assure you that what they said was truly repentant.
As to advancement, most of us don’t aspire to office. I know I don’t. In fact several things were said about that.
One was a joke told when Ben asked us to go around the room and introduce ourselves. He also asked to tell a little about our Southern Baptist experiences. He then said that if we had never served the SBC, our presence at that meeting would guarantee that we never did. It was a joke and it was funny, but it underlied the truth that if we really wanted advance ourselves, we would not be openly meeting in a gathering that was not under the authority of the powers that be. Rather, we would be seeking their blessings.
The other thing that was said, and this was during a discussion of the recycling of leadership, was that no one should expect any appointments from anyone else in the room, should the opportunity arise. This statement was repeated at least twice that I recall.
In other words, the message was that this was not a group for political advancement.
Thanks for reading and posting,
Art
art rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 4:30 pm:
Paul (Mr. Burleson?)
Thanks so much for the compliment. You are as gracious as Wade.
Art
tim rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 4:41 pm:
Brother Art,
I not a long lost cousin, probably more like a red-headed step-child, or an illeterate son. (I just offended everyone didn’t I?)
Well, I do thank you for your candor. I pray that God will expose the hearts of those that see this as a political movement and barnacle themselves to you.
art rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 5:14 pm:
Tim,
Thanks… I … think?
Art
Benjamin S. Cole
on May 12th, 2006
@ 7:26 pm:
Tim:
I guess you think I’m politically savvy. I guess I don’t see it. I’m a political lightening rod because I say what I’m thinking in words that are clear and leave people with little doubt.
Do I believe every word of the Memphis Declaration and wish to live according to its spirit?
Yes.
Do I believe that Ronnie Floyd is the man to lead the SBC.
Absolutely not.
Do I believe that it is completely improper and warranting of trustee action that Paige Patterson has used the office afforded him by Southern Baptists and the media arm of Southwestern Seminary to endorse any candidate for office?
You bet I do.
Do I intend to address this act of administrative carelessness in every possible way?
Yup.
But I’m not sure what you know of me from seminary — other than having two classes together — that makes you think I’m politically savvy?
Whatever the case…I look forward to seeing you in Greensboro. :)
tim rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 8:06 pm:
This post has been removed by the author.
art rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 8:13 pm:
Tim,
Since I deleted Brad’s I will have to do the same to you, I’m afraid.
Good info, though.
tim rogers
on May 12th, 2006
@ 8:20 pm:
Ben,
Yes I do believe you to be politically savy. You worked your way into the political halls and underground bunkers at SEBTS. Having said that, I am not against you being politically savy. I do not mean it as a negative comment only to say you know your way around the political land mines of this institution. You are a political lightening rod because you speak what is on your mind and your as you mature you will learn when and where to allow that to happen.
While you have an opinion of Dr. Floyd’s timing in leading the convention it is yours and you are free to express it. As I have said in another post I am not sure, I am still praying. His CP record does concern me as BP has now confirmed he only gave 32K or 27K I cannot remember which.
Also, if you remember Duke McCall ran the SBC from the Presidential Office of Southern. While this was before either of our times, this sort of actions have been going on in the past. Also, as is known, Dr. Patterson as an architech of the conservative resurgence would step forward and do this for Dr. Floyd. This should not surprise anyone. It tells you that Dr. Floyds nomination is not such a good thing. Dr. Patterson is using his influence to get Dr. Floyd elected because Dr. Patterson reads the blogs and he knows what is going on.
Ben, I do not know you personally, as you said we only had two classes together. However, you are involved in and are viewed as a leader in somehting that could be the next resurgence. I pray that everyone considers this before trying to dismantle what is seen as good-ole-boy networks.
Whatever we agree or disagree on, I still look forward to seeing you in Greensboro :)
You ain’t heavy, you are my Brother
Tim
Benjamin S. Cole
on May 12th, 2006
@ 9:37 pm:
Tim —
I’m sure I’ll mature some day. In fact, I’m turning 30 this month. I suppose I did “work my way into” certain “bunkers,” but I assure you, brother, I regret most of it.
All I learned about SBC politics I learned at SEBTS.
And I suppose my “scorched earth” tactics are the result of having watched men who employed them with greater “plausible deniability” than I wish to maintain.
But you’re right. Greensboro will be a great reunion. But if you vote for Ronnie Floyd for convention president I will make sure you never get a job in the SBC again.
(Of course, I’m joking…but doesn’t that kind of threat sound all too familiar?)
martyduren
on May 13th, 2006
@ 6:49 am:
Art and Tim-
Sounds like you need to bring overdue Christmas presents when you come to G’boro.
tim rogers
on May 13th, 2006
@ 7:15 am:
Ben,
“Scortched Earth” isn’t that tearing everything down and calling it peace? I do not see you doing that if that was your implication of my assessment of you. While you probably did learn these tactics while at SEBTS that is not the reason to use them.
Also, while I know you were joking about me voting for Ronnie Floyd and never having another job in the SBC, that has been the outcome for some. I assure you that I am not looking for a job in the SBC, neither am I looking for a position. However, it must be remembered that the very ones who are in leadership today placed their future in SBC positions on the line in the 70′s. It is the same as with the group of 30 that met at Memphis. If after a few years change does not happen, will this group lead there churches to leave the SBC?
tim rogers
on May 13th, 2006
@ 7:18 am:
Brother (cousin) Art,
What are you going to get me for Christmas?
Tim
Benjamin S. Cole
on May 13th, 2006
@ 9:06 am:
Tim:
If I were using a scorched earth tactic…trust me…things would be alot hotter in Ft. Worth right now.
I am trying to exercise restraint, but I feel like R.G. Lee’s famous sermon, Payday Someday, is a message that many of us — including me — need to hear.
And about your attaining plum denominational posts. Brother, I don’t want one either. In fact, I’m doing my dead-level best to make myself the most unsavory candidate in Southern Baptist history.
I’d vote for Ronnie Floyd on one condition.
If I was his opponent.
;)