Big Daddy Weave: And that, my friends, is hypocrisy…
An anonymous blogger whose post name is, Big Daddy Weave, posted a reference to his blog in the comment section of another post. He is highly critical of the Memphis Declaration authors, from what I interpret as a Moderate perspective. I hope this is a fair description.
Since it wasn’t directly related to the article it was posted under, I deleted it. To be fair, I am posting the link here for anyone who interested in reading what he has to say. This is not a precedent for future links from off-topic comments.
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Kevin Bussey
on May 10th, 2006
@ 9:35 am:
Thanks for the link Art. Why can’t we move on?
Den
on May 10th, 2006
@ 12:28 pm:
I thank you for the link, Art. There is so much that needed to be said and everyone, so far, has replied with the same candor and truth that the poster did. I don’t disagree with any of them but before we “move on,” could more of you understand that for many people, life was drastically changed in a negative way by the polarizing? Within homes, extended families, work environments and churches, relationships were destroyed and more personal heartache than anyone other than our Loving Father will ever know, was the result. It is harder for the really “hurt” to forget than it is for those of you who can just move on because the effect on you was not as deep. One other thing. Many that had to leave the convention did not “withdraw or desert” but were excluded to the point of being persona non grada. The hate ran so deep that they wouldn’t even accept CBF money. When a Baptist body does that you know they are pretty ——. Someone fill in the blank. I cannot think of the exact word no matter how many letters it has.
Kevin Bussey
on May 10th, 2006
@ 12:46 pm:
Den,
I understand to an extent. We were hurt in our past church deeply. I had to redo my site because I hurt some of my former students by mentioning it. So with Godly counsel, I deleted those posts and am trying to move on. We still hurt, but I don’t think everyone else wants to hear it.
I am sorry for all of the stuff that happened over the last 30 years. But, I had nothing to do with it. I can have something to do with the present.
Thanks for reminding us not to forget the past.
art rogers
on May 10th, 2006
@ 1:09 pm:
JUSTAMOE posted this at Big Daddy Weave’s blog and I am reposting it here, since this is where he tried to post it:
I wanted to point out, in light of Art’s post of today, that NO ONE yet has demonstrated that ANYTHING significantly “moderate” was theological in nature in or prior to 1979 (the Peace Committee found something–but, essentially, almost NOTHING). It was, instead, POLITICAL–meaning that, one day and probably soon, we’ll look the Lord Jesus Christ in the eyes and answer to Him for something seriously done wrong to His Body for no good reason. I’m not willing to risk that anymore, and I can’t believe anyone reading these blogs WITH COMPREHENSION is willing to do so either.
We all need to get along now–and not just for Jesus’ sake, but for OURS!
art rogers
on May 10th, 2006
@ 1:26 pm:
Den,
The link is me trying to be fair to everyone.
We’ll settle for “angry” to till in the blank, ok?
Justamoe,
I know you are hurting as a fellow student at SWBTS when Dr. Dilday was fired.
I am not sure it is fair to say there was nothing or even not much about some of the things that needed to be addressed.
My concern, though, is how it was handled – which is poorly. Going our seperate ways may hurt a little, abusing others, slandering their character, wrecking their careers and family lives – these things hurt a lot.
I remember the quote Dr. Ascol gave that I posted from Memphis in response to the “ends justifies the means” practice of working for the “cause” –
“What ’cause’ allows us to violate the principles of righteousness?”
There will never be one.
JUSTAMOE
on May 10th, 2006
@ 2:42 pm:
Thanks, Art.
I graduated from SWBTS before the situation regarding Dr. Dilday arose–but know people who still were students then, and they expressed how difficult the days were.
I stand by what I said earlier: essentially, NOTHING significantly “moderate” theologically was found by the Peace Committee–and what may have been found and truly been a concern certainly was not worth destroying the Body over. Too many good, honest, theologically-conservative life-long Southern Baptists have testified to the destruction done–and have been either ignored or blacklisted by ones who led the way or stood silently by watching–to deny what I’m saying. We will have to answer for this one day in Heaven, if not now here on earth.
How many times does it have to be posted at any of the popular blogs?–PEOPLE, COOPERATE NOW AND MOVE FORWARD IN MINISTRY! The Memphis Declaration is a good start–but only if it means including and no longer excluding those who couldn’t agree POLITICALLY (again, there essentially was nothing of significance “theologically moderate” prior to or in 1979). I know some bonehead (I say this in love) will disagree with my rallying cry here–but he won’t do it from Scripture. Christian brothers NEVER have the liberty NOT to choose their fellow-believers, even if they disagree seriously.
art rogers
on May 10th, 2006
@ 2:56 pm:
That’s right. We graduated together, but you finished on time while I, er, took my time. ;)
Too many good, honest, theologically-conservative life-long Southern Baptists have testified to the destruction done–and have been either ignored or blacklisted by ones who led the way or stood silently by watching–to deny what I’m saying. We will have to answer for this one day in Heaven, if not now here on earth.
How many times does it have to be posted at any of the popular blogs?–PEOPLE, COOPERATE NOW AND MOVE FORWARD IN MINISTRY! The Memphis Declaration is a good start–but only if it means including and no longer excluding those who couldn’t agree POLITICALLY.
Probably the most salient words you have written and that I have read.
GeneMBridges
on May 10th, 2006
@ 3:58 pm:
I stand by what I said earlier: essentially, NOTHING significantly “moderate” theologically was found by the Peace Committee–and what may have been found and truly been a concern certainly was not worth destroying the Body over. Too many good, honest, theologically-conservative life-long Southern Baptists have testified to the destruction done–and have been either ignored or blacklisted by ones who led the way or stood silently by watching–to deny what I’m saying. We will have to answer for this one day in Heaven, if not now here on earth.
–I’m sorry, but were you at SEBTS under Randall Lolley and when Dr. Drummond first came on board? I think not. Did you hear Lolley’s Quo Vadis sermon? Did you sit in counseling classes with professors that said homosexuality is a gift from God? Did you sit in theology classes with professors that said explicitly that the Bible is a record of revelation and a channel through which God speaks? Look at what comes out of the Divinity School run by Wake Forest University, my friend, and look at who the faculty is and from whence they came. Look to Richmond too. They came from SEBTS. Have you looked at the Alliance of Baptists aka the Southern Baptist Alliance? They were most certainly part of the SBC, and they left. Nobody has ever questioned the theological proclivities of that group. The Peace Committee glossed them right over. It’s a mistake to judge the rest of the SBC by what happened at SWBTS. It’s *also* a mistake to judge the state of every part of the SBC prior to the Peace Committee report by the Peace Committee report and at the same time profess distrust of the SBC leadership at that point but then accept the Peace Committee report as accurate in all respects.
The Peace Committee most certainly did note that there were significant theological differences in the SBC.
The Committee found there are at least two separate and distinct interpretations of the article. One holding “truth without any mixture of error for its matter,” means all areas–historical, scientific, theological and philosophical. The other holds “truth” relates only to matters of faith and practice.
The Committee, discussing whether the faculties of the SBC seminaries adequately reflect the views of many Southern Baptists who believe in the first interpretation, found there was not a theological balance represented in the faculties at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary or Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.
The aim of the Committee to was to reconcile the factions of the SBC, not make peace per se. Reconciliation assumes that a wrong has been done and that significant differences do exist. It found that political wrongs had been done (and continue to be done, and only the willfully ignorant deny it), but it *also* found that there were differences in the Convention over theology that were significant enough to warrant action (and I would have to say this is undeniable too, because I come from the area where WFU is located, and I went to SEBTS and know what it was like). The reason they did not speak to trying to “destroy” the body is that they were charged with developing a plan to reconcile the body, not serve as an ad hoc committee to objectively report on the state of the denomination and then recommend actions that would be considered “destructive” at that time.
JUSTAMOE
on May 10th, 2006
@ 5:37 pm:
Gene:
You are one of my all-time most-respected bloggers.
However, not even you can explain things in such a way as to cause me to believe that what has been done to the SBC and to believers as theologically-conservative as our grandmommas is JUSTIFIED. I don’t disagree–and I didn’t say–that nothing AT ALL of concern theologically existed (and if I typed it, it wasn’t what I meant–so give me some credit for having a little good sense, OK?); what I said/meant was that what has happened NEVER can be justified in light of the Scriptures or what the Peace Committee found. If you CAN find it in the Bible, then I’m the bonehead and I’ll never type another word on any blog.
Again–and, WHATEVER happened–it’s time, brother, for all of us to move on and move forward TOGETHER–and we CAN. I don’t just believe that you know that; I believe you’re doing that. Let’s help everyone else do that, too.
I appreciate you and your ministry.
Art:
Yes; some of us were on the 3-year plan for graduation, and some of us were on the 5-year plan! Fortunately, the Lord got all 3000+ of us through–in 3000+ different ways. And, here we are now!
Thanks for what you do serving the Lord. Galatians 6:9-10