Today we are talking about voting and what that entails. The primary governance in voting is held in the two By Laws, 34 and 35. 34 deals with how we vote and 35 deals with whether or not we can officially vote as a convention.
As to how we vote, By Law 34 gives detail that votes are won by a simple majority except where provisions have been made for a greater than majority vote. An example of this is the 2/3 vote that is required to bring a resolution to the floor when it is not brought there by the Committee on Resolutions.
Also, the method of voting can be by ballot, the raising of hands, standing, by voice, by common consent or by another method that seems reasonable. This seems to be a clause that leaves open the method while giving a few options. Some may question the accuracy of such voting methods, other than by ballot. Generally, those counting the votes are able to get a pretty accurate picture and they don’t usually call for voice votes on crucial issues. It is usually reserved for stuff that seems obvious, like the motion to dismiss for lunch.
If you feel that a vote is not fair or balanced, you can always push the “Point of Order” button on the microphone and call for a ballot vote. I tried to verify this before posting, but was unable to reach anyone that could give me a definitive answer. I will continue to search and will update this post when I know.
Also, you must be present to vote. There are no absentee votes and no votes by proxy. This brings us to the subject of being present and how many present makes a quorum, which is described in By Law 35.
For those who do not know, a quorum is the minimum number of a body present that is required to ensure that the mind of the whole is represented fairly by those present. That’s pretty technical. Try this: Minimum number needed to conduct business.
It would not be fair to allow twenty people gathered in a room to represent 30,000 who are at lunch. That could potentially allow for a select small group to organize, call themselves to order and do things that the whole body would never allow. Having a quorum is a common part of organizations that govern themselves by Robert’s Rules of Order.
A quorum for us is 25% of the registered messengers. Usually, there are more than enough to make a quorum when the SBC does its business, so it should not be an issue.
What really matters here is that some messengers do not stay for the Convention. This is a sad statement, but true. When the Resurgence was underway, it was typical for some to make sure they were present to vote for President, and then go on a tour of the host city.
However, I think with the particular interest this Convention has accrued, there will be much less in the way of absenteeism. There had better be a dramatic drop in absenteeism. If I find out YSBC has gone to Starbucks when votes were being taken, you will be hearing from me.
Ok, I have made that threat more than enough for now. I’ll save it for awhile – at least until we get closer to Greensboro.
Oh, yes, speaking of Absenteeism… Did you know that they only reason given in the By Laws for a Trustee of an SBC entity to be removed is absenteeism?
Tomorrow’s post…
![[del.icio.us]](http://images.del.icio.us/static/img/delicious.small.gif){kind=small}
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 11:24 am:
I will go to Starbucks, but I will vote also.
Where do you get this stuff. Man, you are thorough! Thanks again!
Jason Sampler
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 11:50 am:
Art,
Nice closing pot-shot at Corbaley, Hatley, and the boys.
art rogers
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 11:50 am:
I get the By Laws from the sbc.net website.
Other things, I email or call and ask people who are responsible for the business of the convention.
The rest is stored in my mind, which should call some of what I say into question.
art rogers
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 11:57 am:
Jason,
Well, its not exactly a “pot shot.” Read tomorrow and see what I have to say about the By Laws.
For that matter, I encourage everyone to read the By Laws for themselves.
Tomorrow is 36: Trustee Absenteeism.
Jason Sampler
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 12:07 pm:
Art,
Please don’t take my comments towards you as having any anomosity. You know my position on the issue of Burleson and the attempted dismissal from the BoT. I was actually complimenting you on taking a legitimate truth and (politely) providing ‘veiled’ application. No harm intended towards you, my friend.
Blessings,
Jason Sampler
Anonymous
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 12:38 pm:
I would expect that many votes this year will be by counted ballot rather than simply by raised ballot. Last year, Bobbly Welch called for a ballot vote on the NOBTS sole membership issue. Some around me groaned when he did it.
I bring up the NOBTS issue from last year to make two points:
1)I think Bobby will try to be a fair moderator and make sure that fair votes are taken, even if some people don’t like it.
2)Most messengers (let’s call them serfs) who will be there will not know the real issues, and they will not listen objectively to the discussion. They will, however, respond affirmatively to the rhetoric and talking points of their lords, and they will vote for whichever position/person that certain convention leaders want them to.
art rogers
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 1:09 pm:
Jason,
I didn’t take it that way. I also did not want others reading to think that I was intending to do anything other than substantiate any thoughts I may have on the subject.
In other words, my comment was more for the lurker than for you.
Anon.
Let’s NOT call anybody serfs and lords. I take your meaning well, but I am shy of that kind of namecalling.
I also think that YSBC will come with clear minds and having thought through the issues. What would happen if such people were in the majority?
Anonymous
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 2:51 pm:
My point was to illustrate why people MUST come well prepared, thoroughly versed in the read issues, and em masse. Nothing short of that equals more status quo.
Anonymous
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 2:52 pm:
edit: “real issues” not “read issues”
Wes Kenney
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 5:34 pm:
Lord Rogers, (sorry, couldn’t resist!)
This isn’t really following the comments, but I love the convenience of the bylaws in the churches where I have served regarding quorums. They have all stated that the members present constitute a quorum to do business. Imagine the power of one person who gets everyone else to stay home!
Jeff Richard Young
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 9:47 pm:
Dear Brother Art,
Couldn’t we just set it up to where you can get the feed from the convention hall on your laptop, PDA, or cell phone, and comment or vote wirelessly. Then we could just stay at Starbuck’s the whole time without missing a vote or messing up the quorum.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
art rogers
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 10:01 pm:
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff…
You dissappoint me. Read the post, brother.
You must be present to vote. No voting absentee and no voting by proxy.
On the other hand, Dorcas once suggested a cooler with coffee stocked inside.
Pastor Joe
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 10:05 pm:
Art,
Great job as always. Thanks again for your hard work which will be helpful to many, especially the first-time messengers. A group we need to especially encourage to attend in Greensboro.
You are correct that any member may ask for the vote to be retaken by a more certain method if he or she does not think the result announced by chair is correct, or that it is impossible to determine.
This motion however is not a point of order, which asserts that something that was done did not follow proper parliamentary procedure.
The name of the motion is “a division of the house” or “a division of the assembly.” In parliamentary procedure lingo this is called an “incidential motion.” Actually, it is very powerful. Any member may call for a division of the house. Under RONR anyone is entitled to interupt any speaker to make this motion. In reality, at the SBC, you will have to push the point of order button and wait to be recognized unless you can holler very loudly. I once did bellow like a mule and force the presiding officer who was ignoring me at a state convention annual meeting to recognize me (won the vote too). That usually only works if others start chanting for a division of the house, which is not all that uncommon elsewhere, but rare at the SBC annual meeting.
The motion does not require a second, is not debatable and must be voted upon immediately. Under RNOR (and all previous editions) any person present and voting has an absolute right to interupt the speaker, request a division of the house, and have the vote retaken. How it is retaken will depend upon the circumstances. If it was a voice vote, the division will either be by show of hands or standing (prefered). Most votes in the SBC are by lifting the ballots. No explicit rule on such in RONR, but our parliamentarians usually call those the equivalent of voice votes, but the equivalent of raised hands is probably the better parliamentary procedure. If those were used initially, or there another motion for a division of the house it would be either paper ballot or roll call (which is not applicable in the SBC). Sometimes the person making the motion will ask for a division of the house by paper ballot. The chair would not be bound by that, but often would skip the standing ballot in such situation.
Those are the provisons of RONR which is the parlamentary procedure for the SBC and most other organizations. Any voter is entitled to interupt ANYONE and by just asking receive a division. However, it must be done before the meeting moves to the next item. I have certain seen presiding officers at the SBC annual meeting and elsewhere somehow not hear the motion for a divison of the house, or move to the next item with astonishing alacrity. That said, I agree that Bobby Welch is likely to try to be fair when he is presiding. Also, normally the vote is very clear cut and calls for a division of the house are unusual.
art rogers
on Apr 19th, 2006
@ 10:14 pm:
Pastor Joe,
Thanks for the knowledge!
Art
Dorcas
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 7:31 am:
Art -
My goodness your threatening us about leaving to go to Starbucks during a business session is getting as old as me saying I will nominate you President. Shall we call a truce? :)
You need to do a primer on how the convention itself works too. Do we get restroom breaks? Are the concession stands open just like at a concert or sports venue? Are there any rules about food and beverages (actual or protocol) during the business meetings?
When I attended Texas A&M even McDonald’s delivered to the dorms because it was a viable business. If we can bring outside beverage vendors into the convention center (i.e. no contractual legal restrictions) I am seriously considering contacting Starbucks to let them know the mint they could make that week if they’ll show up with a cart on the sidewalk or something.
But alas there probably is some rule against it. Dang those lawyers. ;)
Dorcas
art rogers
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 8:22 am:
Yes, yes… Truce.
I am afraid that I have not been to a convention recently and will have to rely on others to describe the ambiance of the convention. My recollections are not only fuzzy, but so much time has passed that they are sure to have changed.
Friends: Pastor Joe, Villa Rica, Tim, Kevin and anyone else who can help, please do so now.
Jason Sampler
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 8:50 am:
Art,
Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.
Blessings,
Jason Sampler
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 9:33 am:
Art,
I guess this means Mayor Daly could never when Pres of the SBC.
Pastor Joe
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 2:59 pm:
I put a response to Dorcas’ question and Art’s invitation on Dorcas’ blog under Hall Pass. That was probably a mistake. I deny knowing anybody on that comment list (which is true – might have went to school with their grandpas).
Anonymous
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 4:20 pm:
The convention is just like any other convention. It’s not a church service. It’s rude to talk and move about when someone is giving an address, i.e. Convention sermon, president’s address or a special report . However there are some who do not adhere to decorum. But usually, anyone can eat or drink inside the convention if it is allowed by the convention proper. Each venue has it’s own rules.
I have seen people drink water or a soft drink during the meeting..but usually not eating inside the convention hall unless it is between sessions and the messenger doesn’t want to go back to his/her hotel. There are always concessions open at the convention facilities. Usually lots of ice cream..ha.. we eat that instead of drinking alcohol..ha Sometimes there are hot meals available and of course, sandwiches.
You can go to the bathroom anytime you need.. no one will stop you. Only if the President of the US is present, will there be limited movement(no pun intended). After he leaves, then we are free to move around whenever we want.
As far as the motion for Division of the House or Assembly goes.. people do have a tendency to scream that out, but in the SBC, yelling will not be recognized.. only those who go to a microphone. The messenger who desires a Division of the house vote, just tells the microphone monitor and he switches on the mike. The parliamentarian will recognize the mike that has been activated first.
Division of the Assembly, and other Motions relating to Voting. A Division of the Assembly1 may be called for, without obtaining the floor, at any time after the question has been put, even after the vote has been announced and another has the floor, provided the vote was taken via voice, or by show of hands, and it is called for before another motion has been made. This call, or motion, is made by saying, “I call for a division,” or “I doubt the vote,” or simply by calling out, “Division.”(remember..R.R.of O were written to manage a much smaller group than thousands…that is why the SBC only recognizes a request made on the mike.. that keeps more control of an unruly crowd or keeps it from becoming unruly). It does not require a second, and cannot be debated, or amended, or have any other subsidiary motion applied to it. As soon as a division is called for, the chair proceeds again to take the vote, this time by having the affirmative rise, and then when they are seated having the negative rise. While any member has the right to insist upon a rising vote, or a division, where there is any question as to the vote being a true _expression of the will of the assembly, the chair should not permit this privilege to be abused to the annoyance of the assembly, by members constantly demanding a division where there is a full vote and no question as to which side is in the majority. It requires a majority vote to order the vote to be counted, or to be taken by yeas and nays (roll call) or by ballot. These motions are incidental to the question that is pending or has just been pending, and cannot be debated. When different methods are suggested they are usually treated not as amendments, but like filling blanks, the vote being taken first on the one taking the most time. In practice the method of taking a vote is generally agreed upon without the formality of a vote.
In more than a decade have I seen or heard a request for a division of the house. The parliamentarians and presiding officer is usually very fair..because if there is any question as to the correct count, they would rather take a ballot count than have someone say they decided on a bias.
I hope this is the answer you needed.
Tim Sweatman
on Apr 20th, 2006
@ 5:51 pm:
Dorcas,
There are people going in and out of the convention hall all the time. That was one of the things that surprised me at my first convention. As far as eating and drinking, that depends on the venue. In Indianapolis, where the meeting was held in the convention center, there were few concessions available. But in Nashville, where the meeting was held in the arena, a pretty full selection was available. I know you could eat and drink inside the meeting hall in Nashville, and I think it was allowed in Indianapolis as well. In Nashville there were video monitors so you could keep up with what was going on in the meeting hall while you were in the concourse.
My main complaint is that the lunch and dinner breaks aren’t long enough (I think an hour and a half). With 10,000 extra people filling the downtown area, the restaurants are filled beyond their capacity, which means long wait times. And of course, you have to walk a few blocks to get to the restaurant. I think it would be better to give two and a half or three hours for lunch and dinner breaks and move some of the business to Wednesday afternoon (there is no afternoon session on Wednesday, just morning and evening; or at least that was the case in 2004 and 2005).
Dorcas
on Apr 21st, 2006
@ 8:55 am:
Wow, thanks for the info! Back on the comment string to my Hall Pass post I put some links to the relevant info on concessions in Greensboro. It appears this is a stadium (football, hockey, etc.), so I suppose full concessions will be available as if you were going to a sports venue. Anyone for a chili cheese dog?