My alma mater, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, was once the flagship of Southern Baptist Theological Education. When I arrived, in 1990, we were the largest Seminary in the entire World, and even among Southern Baptist Seminaries, there was not a close second.
Recently, we have seen a decline in FTE enrollment. FTE stands for Full Time Equivalent. It represents full time, Masters Degree students. Curiously, Dr. Patterson, current president, seems to indicate that the Seminary is growing, and has regularly reported so to the Trustees in their meetings.
In 2003, upon his arrival, Patterson declared that the end to decline in the student population had come with him. You can read about this meeting in the BP article, Patterson declares end to downturn in Southwestern Seminary enrollment. In this article, he declares that the enrollment of SWBTS has been in gradual decline for twenty years.
Now, I happen to have been there for some of that time, and I just don’t remember it that way. As of this moment, I have asked for the FTE numbers from 1983-2003, the time in question. I will get them to you as soon as I can.
In 2004, at the annual Trustee meeting, Patterson said that the Seminary had grown 4% and set 6.000 students as his goal. Presumably, he was referring to FTE students. You can read the BP article, Enrollment up, missions heightened, Patterson tells trustees.
Now, I remember hearing about Dr. Patterson quoting a few numbers before at his previous post, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. In fact, the numbers Patterson regularly claims are at the bottom of the same article. The claim is often made that the student population of SEBTS was less than 600, but under Patterson’s leadership, it grew to over 2,300.
The problem with those numbers is that the first one is FTE, but the second one is all students at all levels. It’s just a bit misleading isn’t it?
So I am wondering what is up with Southwestern’s numbers. Patterson claimed that there was a decline even in Dr. Hemphill’s term of leadership, but this is not the case. In fact, despite being rocked by being put on probation after the Trustees dismissed Dr. Dilday, Dr. Hemphill won the respect of the faculty and got the school off of academic probation in record time, restoring trust.
Dr. Patterson is consistently saying that before he came everything was falling apart, but evidence of God’s blessing through him is the continued growth of Southwestern under his leadership.
For those who have an eye for it, look for the report to the Trustees of SWBTS coming out tomorrow. Several of us think that Dr. Patterson will say that the school has grown yet again.
In light of that, I give you the FTE numbers for the last ten years, obtained from the Executive Committee in Nashville:
1995-1996 3,024 Dr. Hemphill + 2 years
1996-1997 3,052
1997-1998 3,099
1998-1999 2,784
1999-2000 2,441
2000-2001 2,371
2001-2002 2,381
2002-2003 2,209 Dr. Hemphill leaves, Dr. Patterson installed w/in 4 months.
2003-2004 2,202
2004-2005 1,991
The records for the Seminary before 1976 do not calculate students the way we do now, but since that time, the FTE population has not dropped below 2,000.
I wonder if the IMB were losing missionaries at the rate the former flagship of SBC theological education is losing full time Master’s degree students, if anyone would still be on staff.
Look for the report tomorrow.
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Jeff Richard Young
on Apr 4th, 2006
@ 9:13 pm:
Dear Art,
I love when someone provides the raw data like you have done!
I don’t have any problem with fluctuations in enrollment. Those numbers have something to do with, but are ultimately not within the control of the administration. But if he is actually LYING about the numbers, especially if he is doing so to try to make himself look good and previous presidents look bad, then that is exactly bearing false witness against his neighbor.
Thanks for keeping us posted.
Love in Christ,
Jeff
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 4th, 2006
@ 10:43 pm:
Art,
Great research! Our alma mater has seen better times. I was devastated when Dr. Dilday was fired. But as you said, I grew to love Dr. Hemphill. Then I found out last year that he was fired. Where was I? I hope Dr. Patterson can right the ship. But maybe all of the politics has destroyed SWBTS forever. I hope not!
Have you seen the video link on Dorcas site? I sure hope CP $$ didn’t pay for that video.
Villa Rica
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 12:09 am:
Brother Art,
Your post breaks my heart and I am not being dramatic. I had heard the possibility of this situation being a reality just recently. I was hopeful that what I had heard was wrong.
You stated that this came from an Executive Committee report. Obviously that is correct. The only way this could be refuted is by a representative of the Executive Committee doing so by contacting you in some way.
Therefore, I ask you: Has any staff member at the Executive Committee contacted you to challenge, in any way, this report that you have posted? If so would you please let it be known? If you are contacted in the future share that also.
To understand FTE enrollment reports can be difficult. No President would falsify one just to MAKE HIMSELF LOOK GOOD AND PREVIOUS PRESIDENTS LOOK BAD. The reason for doing so would be much deeper.
Brother Art, I want you to be wrong but I know in my soul that the report is probably right. I know that Presidents of seminaries have done this in the past. I just did not want this to be the case at SWBTS.
Again this saddens me for reasons that I could never express. So, if you hear from anyone from the Executive Committee relating to this matter,please, let it be known.
If this is true it is something that the trustees of SWBTS should address while they are meeting this week. Secrecy should not be the order of the day in dealing with it either. Openness would be refreshing for a change.
Villa Rica
Dorcas
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 5:15 am:
The cumulative discussion of questionable enrollment reporting and questionable use of CP funding leads me to one question – will the SWBTS Trustees have the resolve to investigate matters, or will they just report that everything is smooth sailing in the “golden age” of Southwestern?
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 8:45 am:
Villa Rica,
The FTE numbers are public domain and are a part of the report the Seminary gives to the convention. Anyone can have them. Your church may have reports from previous years conventions, and if you turn to the Wouthwestern report in that document, you will see these FTE numbers.
What you will hear is that the Seminary is growing. It is, in fact growing, in smaller areas and other programs. However, the massive loss of FTE students is being glossed over by the other numbers.
FTE student numbers are the index by which we evaluate all Seminaries. It is this number that determines how much CP giving each school receives.
In other words, the Master’s degree programs are the original intent of the Seminaries and its main focus.
Is it not disengenuous, then, when a school’s FTE numbers are falling, to say “God is doing a miracle” at Southwestern? Is it now misleading to simply say that the school is growing without saying how it is growing and how it is not growing?
Dorcas,
It is said that the Trustees at Southwestern are chosen for their loyalty. You can judge the substance of that comment by evaluating it against their actions over the next few days.
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 8:54 am:
Typing in a hurry, sorry.
Not “Wouthwestern” but Southwestern.
I am trying to get going, I am out of the office doing ministry all day today.
Paul
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 12:06 pm:
You can also find some of that info in the SBC Annual. It only gives info back to the 2001-2002 school year and up to the 2003-2004 school year, but confirms the numbers Art has given. Interestingly, they also include projections for 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 school years and simply duplicate the exact numbers in every category from the 2003-2004 year. Nothing insidious there, but why include projections that obviously took absolutely no work to generate?
Paul
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 12:40 pm:
Art, you note that the BP article which quoted growth numbers at SEBTS is comparing FTEs with total enrollment. If the other BP article correctly cites the figures from the institutional assessment’s office then that is not the FTE figures they reported on but the fall enrollment headcount (whatever that consists of). On that basis there was an enrollment growth, but at the same time there was a decline in FTEs. FTEs generally give a better picture of overall institutional growth, unless a goal of the institution is to grow their part-time student base.
joe kennedy
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 2:55 pm:
Well add at least one more to the mix for next year, because my best friend and roommate from NOBTS announced to his pastor yesterday and will announce to his youth tonight he’s transferring. And he might not be alone.
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:09 pm:
Paul,
Regarding your last comment:
I thought I was saying that, but if I was unclear, thanks for restating it.
Joe,
I am thrilled for your roommate. He is going to one of my most favorite places on earth.
However, Southwestern is not the issue. Integrity is the issue.
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:18 pm:
Joe,
I loved SWBTS! I still love it. But I’m looking at D.Min programs and with what is going on there, I think I will pass. Gordon Conwell looks like a better bet as of today. I have been impressed with how Al Mohler handles himself.
SBC Watchdog
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:23 pm:
Ha. You published your expose in time for the SWBTS Public Relations office to edit out any comments regarding enrollment numbers.
It was reported to seminary trustees that SWBTS housing is at 95% capacity. That figure isn’t especially helpful when your realize how many students have been dragging through their degree plans in order to stay in subsidized housing. If it’s taking you seven years to do an M.Div., the fact that you still occupy seminary housing isn’t particularly reflective of God’s blessing on the seminary as it is your indolence in your studies.
The trustees were also informed that the new chapel was moving ahead on schedule. A couple of million dollars, none of which is from CP monies we are told, is going toward building a 3,500 seat chapel. Yet the question remains: Why build a new chapel when you can’t fill the one you’ve got? Or maybe the administration has adopted a “Field of Dreams” vision. If you build it, they will come.
(Thanks, Dorcas, for that one. Kudos.)
And how many millions will it take to build some gothic chapel structure when SWBTS has existed for almost 100 years without one? Even if CP dollars aren’t being used to build it, but private donations are being gathered like they were for the presidential manse, is it good stewardship to spend it so frivously. Why doesn’t the administration use its influence to build the endowment instead, or to promote the Cooperative Program, or to enlist donors to give to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering. Pardon my ignorance, but I thought Patterson’s vision was to train 6000 paratroopers for the Kingdom of God, not to build monuments to his own adminstration?
Will Georg Anderson be designing the chapel interior?
Southwestern has also hired William Dembski to teach philosophy? I wasn’t aware that he had been a Southern Baptist for even three years. Why does Patterson allow one standard for seminary professors and require another one for missionary personnel? It seems incongruous.
I have another question. Is it true that SWBTS paid two presidential salaries for the first year of Patterson’s presidency? If the reported salaries are accurate, Paige is making well over $200,000.00 a year. Why was Hemphill paid a full year of salary too during the 2003-2004 school year? And why is Patterson now the highest paid seminary president when the school he leads is in steady decline?
Does anybody know why the SWBTS press release didn’t include information about the hiring of Alaskan Pastor and Executive Committee member Dean Nichols? Word on the street is that Patterson hired Nichols to fill a non-descript and newly-formed position at the seminary. That wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that Nichols has been the leading antagonist to Morris Chapman at the Executive Committee would it? Patterson should spend more money building the enrollment than he does rewarding his lieutenants with perked-up appointments.
And has anybody done an analysis of the members of the SWBTS board lately?
Why is a professor of a non-Southern Baptist seminary now serving as chairman of the SWBTS board? Is that a conflict of interest? And why is the same man’s wife serving on the NOBTS board?
I’m getting a list of the SWBTS trustees together. When I have it, I’ll post a comment somewhere in cyberspace.
Bowden McElroy
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:27 pm:
Art and Paul:
Believe me when I say I’m no fan of Dr. Patterson (I plan on finishing my MDiv when my middle daughter finishes college… but there is no way I’ll go back to SWBTS).
BUT, do declining FTE’s reflect the seminary president, or the way students are choosing to pursue seminary? And, so what? If part time enrollment is up and students are older (which I think is true), then maybe we shouldn’t try to re-capture FTE’s.
My complaint about our seminaries in general (and the body that accredits seminaries) is that we are not keeping up with technology and changing times.
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:34 pm:
Bowden,
You make a great point! Then why was Dr. Hemphill removed?
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:34 pm:
Watchdog,
I intentionally posted the night before the release. I have my reasons as to why.
Dr. P is looking for 6,000 “special ops” people, not paratroopers. That’s a completely different military analogy.
Other than that, relevant questions.
Bowden,
I don’t hold Dr. P personally respnsible for the numbers – although I suspect there is some correlation.
He holds the numbers out as a sign of God’s blessings, and I hold him responsible to be accurate and forthright in his accounting.
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:36 pm:
Oh, yes, Watchdog…
It is customary to pay somone severance when you fire them, especially if they don’t oppose it and split the institution when you do it. Hence, 2 salaries.
Kevin Bussey
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 3:40 pm:
Art,
There goes your honorary Doctorate from The Hill!
disillusioned
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 4:08 pm:
Art,
When Hemphill was being “blamed” by some board members for the decline in FTEs, I remember thinking that they were not taking something important into account, namely the situations at SBTS and SEBTS that had previously contributed to SWBTS’ large enrollment.
For many years, SWBTS enjoyed the status as being the “conservative” school that was “safe” for pastors in the south central and southeastern states to recommend to their young people. Further, NOBTS wasn’t attracting many students from outside the “deep” south. SWBTS was just the logical place to go for a student who didn’t want the more “liberal” environment of SBTS and SEBTS or who wasn’t interested in NOBTS.
So when Hemphill began to take some heat from trustees for enrollment decline, I remember thinking that they were not considering the number of students from other states who were “staying home” to attend the “new” conservative SBTS and SEBTS, nor were they taking into account how aggressively NOBTS had begun to recruit students, some of whom might have previously journeyed to FW, through its numerous extension centers.
With all of that being said, the numbers should have reached a point of homeostasis by now. (I think the FTE numbers from the last few years of Hemphill’s presidency probably represented that point.)
Yet…the number of FTEs appears to have continued to decrease. To me, that doesn’t reflect the positive changes at other seminaries as much as it reflects negatively on the current envirnoment at Southwestern.
As easy as it is to blame the president, I would instead point to the controlling faction of the board and to the office of the Provost. Changes under his tenure and their approval (some that predate the current president) have resulted in a much smaller PhD program, a gutted D.Min. program, and continued declines in the number of new M.Div. students.
Further, and contrary to conventional wisdom, many faculty retirements and resignations over the last few years have less to do with the new president and more to do with the Provost. (I’m sorry, but I can’t substantiate that without betraying some confidences.)
I am sure that some would claim that this is a time of “pruning” for SWBTS, that these enrollment declines are the inevitable result of less committed or less academically capable students leaving. Give all the changes to the academic programs time, and they’ll come back bigger and stronger than ever. Perhaps. I guess time will tell. But I’m not optimistic.
Even though SEBTS and SBTS are clearly in the hands of conservative boards of trustees, they seem to have moved beyond constant political posturing and maneuvering. We’re now over a decade removed from Dilday’s firing, and the SWBTS board still seems intent on conflict and politics.
The strategy is clear enough though. Change and gut the programs and accept any immediate losses as inevitable. Create an undergrad college and recuit to it heavily. Hope that 80% or more of the undergrads will stay for Master’s level work. Point to the numbers once your undergrads become FTEs. Claim “success.”
Prediction: Once the College at SW begins to graduate students into the Masters programs, FTE enrollment will again climb into the 2,000s, where it will level off about where it was during Hemphill’s last few years.
I’m really quite grieved by it all. And frankly, to hear somebody who never even attended Southwestern giving the “charge” to new students on the first day of chapel makes my stomach turn.
Mary Ann
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 4:41 pm:
Maybe someone needs to analyze the numbers from other SB seminaries to see if decline in FTE is an overall trend. It’d be interesting to see a table or graph with info from the others, side by side. What about overall SB seminary enrollment (FTEs)? Is it up or down? And how do places like Truitt and Beeson fit into this? Inquiring minds want to know.
disillusioned
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 5:02 pm:
Mary Ann,
Schools like Beeson, Truett, etc. surely have had some impact. Probably Beeson moreso than Truett or any of the divinity schools popping up on quasi-Baptist college campuses. Beeson has not partnered with CBF its faculty is rather “conservative.”
As to your other question… Combined, I think you’ll find that FTEs at the 6 SBC schools are up or rising, but I don’t have the figures in front of me.
Bowden McElroy
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 5:32 pm:
Art:
I, too, would like to see accuracy and forthrightness in the reporting of enrollment numbers.
My point is not just that it is disingenuous to compare overall enrollment to previous years full time enrollment, but that it may be an antiquated view of looking at the efficacy of the institution.
You stated that CP giving was based on FTE’s and Paul noted that “FTEs generally give a better picture of overall institutional growth”. I have a problem with both notions.
First we need integrity in reporting. Then we need to ask ourselves if we are measuring (and funding)the right things.
art rogers
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 7:58 pm:
Bowden,
Point well taken.
Could it be possible that our Seminaries are being successful in diversification to meet the situation in which now find ourselves?
Still, master level work is important and if we are losing them overall, that is a major problem.
I agree, though, that we should have a uniform index that calculates all levels of students, full time and part time.
It should be mandatory to report all of these numbers to the Trustees and to the convention.
What do you think?
Bowden McElroy
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 8:21 pm:
Art:
A uniform index would be nice. As long as we’re dreaming, I would like to see:
1. More distance learning opportunities. Of course, the people that accredit seminaries require 30 hours on campus: it would be nice if they would update their learning paradigm, then we could really be creative in distance learning programs.
2. Doctorates that don’t require an MDiv as an entrance requirement (for counselors, lawyers, educators, etc that see themselves as being in ministry but not being the pastor.)
3. I know each seminary is independent, but I don’t see replicating specialized programs across six institutions as being a good use of CP dollars. (Do we really need counseling programs or urban missions programs in more than one or two seminaries?)
4. Then there is the question of what do we measure? I want to know:
-the graduation rate
-how many graduates are ministering in a SBC church or entity after 5 years? 10 years?
-How long do seminary grads stay at the same church? (I think one of our problems across the denomination is the short average tenure of our pastors).
This is the kind of data secular universities and grad schools track. The value of an education, from the point of view of the institution, is not how large the student body is, but how successful their graduates are.
Bowden McElroy
on Apr 5th, 2006
@ 8:24 pm:
I meant to add: I’m not impressed with ‘big’. I was at SWBTS when it was the “largest seminary in the world” (I was never convinced that was accurate… I think the Vatican had/has a school for their priests that is even larger).
‘Big’ only means we have lowered admission standards and made it affordable.
Paul
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 12:20 am:
Bowden,
I don’t disagree with you at all. Note my qualifier at the end of the sentence you quoted: “unless a goal of the institution is to grow their part-time student base.”
I actually think that is a valuable goal and one that, as you say, may need greater exploration. I think it is Eddie Gibb’s book Church Next that promotes new ways of doing theological education (I’m not in my office, but I’ll confirm the book tomorrow).
What I object to is the appearance that apples are being passed off as oranges. If that is happening it isn’t honest.
Of course, I have a friend in Texas who served on a study committee of the BGCT way back when (Patterson was actually at SEBTS at the time) who said that, of the six seminaries only one had a real president. He wasn’t talking about the one SEBTS had, either.
GeneMBridges
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 12:24 am:
The strategy is clear enough though. Change and gut the programs and accept any immediate losses as inevitable. Create an undergrad college and recuit to it heavily. Hope that 80% or more of the undergrads will stay for Master’s level work. Point to the numbers once your undergrads become FTEs. Claim “success.”
I agree. This was his strategy @ SEBTS by the way. I’d also point out that most universities are usually reticient to graduate students from undergraduate programs only to accept them as students again in their graduate programs right after graduation. It makes for a myopic education.
Brother McElroy, I too resonate with your concerns especially 1 and 3, because of what I’ve learned from the PCA in my area. Their denomination is growing fairly quickly for Presybterians, and they have experienced what appears to be a jump in interest in continuing education among their members. This may be because of their church training. While our folks are struggling through the Lifeway material, which we all know is just about as close to vacuous as it gets these days, the PCA is teaching historical theology on Sunday mornings. (For real! I’m not kidding. Last year the local PCA churches were teaching “the history of theology” on Sunday mornings as Sunday School for adults.)
It isn’t without reason the PCA seminaries like Reformed Seminary and the inter-denoms like Gordon-Conwell are opening more extensions. In fact, as I understand it, the PCA schools work like franchise operations. They operate independently of each other within the same unit. RTS has lots of extensions, and they function as a cohesive unit. Greenville is one seminary under their local presbytery, so they seem to be operated more like ours. Westminster East operates separately from Westminster West, or so I gather, but their satellites function as a unit like those of RTS.
The way this works out practically is that a professor like Dr. John Frame (Professor of Theology and Apologetics), for example, is at RTS, Orlando, but his Teaching Assistant, who is a friend of mine, is at RTS Charleston. RTS Charlotte has a handful of professors, but they broadcast their lectures via webcast to certain churches in the local presbyterys as well as to each other. Effectively, a professor at Orlando or his T.A. in Charleston or whatever other city can teach in Orlando, Charleston, Charlotte, Jackson MS, and an extension class offered from one or more churches all in one shebang on any given day through their network. On top of that, they are recording lectures for free download for laypersons and pastors and others to take (we have 3 in my church who are taking church history this way through Covenant Seminary in MO right now, and we are in NC), and I know for a fact that the extensions in the churches are open to anybody to audit “live”; they have to enroll for credit only but they take all the same classes with the same access to the professor as any enrolled student. This makes for an extremely effective educational program, especially for folks living in the boondocks who can get to a church but not a seminary. Last summer, the big PCA church here where I live did this and several of their folks took a Master’s level class in biblical Hebrew and another in the historical books of the OT. You simply don’t find this in SBC churches. IMO, the SBC seminaires should take a page from this. There really isn’t much of a reason to duplicate faculties as much if technology would enable them do this, at least within a certain region for certain programs, plus it would open up theological education to the masses. (Yeah, yeah, I know we need to keep it from the serfs lest they rise up and take over…;) )
On attendance figures… What I’m about to say is snarky and cynical, but there really is no other way to say it. You’re talking about a denomination that puts pride in its numbers, but violates the 9th commandment incessantly when it comes to their statistics. Let’s not forget our current SBC president wants us to “baptize a million” and has chastized churches that don’t want to jump on his program. However, when we look at the figures for his church:
2001
3506 members
203 baptisms
253 other additions
2200 primary worship attendance
2002
3812 members
296 baptisms
190 other additions
2100 primary worship attendance
2003
4011 members
209 baptisms
137 other additions
2031 primary worship attendance
2004
4163 members
237 baptisms
204 other additions
1874 primary worship attendance
The reality is startling. Would this church meet the criteria for “declining?” It went from a counted Sunday morning worship attendance of 2200 in 2001 to 1874 in 2004. If my math is correct, that is a 15% decline.
Granted, they have baptized 945 people during that 4 year period and they have added 784 people by other means. But the church membership only grew by 657. It took 1729 new members for the church to grow by 657 members.
In addition those 1729 new members resulted in 326 fewer worshipers! If the church continues to grow at this rate then by the time it adds around 10,000 new members Brother Bobby will be preaching to an empty auditorium at his “primary worship” service.
The reality is that we are 16.4 million strong, but only 6 to 7 million of us bother to show up to church on Sunday morning. We are much smaller than what we believe, and, I know this sounds mean, in my opinion, numbers like these are Dr. Patterson’s way of standing among his peers in the “Numbers Club” that is the inner circle of the Convention leadership. They are not all of apiece on the way they do things, but one thing is very certain, almost all of them will pat each other on the back for a job well done and the size of their churches in June at the Pastor’s Conference while we violate the 9th commandment when we portray ourselves as growing and healthy.
If your people aren’t coming to church and you are baptizing lots and lots like these men, then there’s a disconnect, a big one. When you pretend it’s not happening or worse yet admit it is happening and throw up your hands, something is wrong. Bobby Welch should have started a membership retention program in the churches to bolster our attendance figures, not our baptism numbers. If you ask me, Jim Eliff had it right when he asked if the SBC was a regenerate denomination.
This resolution was discussed at one time on another blog but nobody ever followed up with it. Now’s a good time to bring it up. It could be modified to include all statistical reporting to include the NAMB, seminaries, etc.
Whereas this 148th annual session of the Southern Baptist Convention marks the 26th anniversary of the conservative resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention; and
Whereas at the heart of this resurgence has been a determination to return to an unashamed commitment to the inerrancy and infallibilty of the Bible as the written Word of God; and
Whereas the Baptist Faith and Message states that the Scriptures are “the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried” (Article 1); and
Whereas the inerrant, infallible Word of God instructs us not to bear false witness (Exodus 20:16), but to put away lying and to speak truthfully to his neighbor (Ephesians 4:25); and
Whereas in 2004 the Southern Baptist Convention Annual Church Profiles indicated that there are 16,287,494 members in Southern Baptist churches; and
Whereas well over one half of those members never attend or participate meaningfully in the life of any local Southern Baptist church and are thus no different than non-members; and
Whereas the ideal of a regenerate church membership has long been and remains a cherished Baptist principle; now, comma, therefore, be it
RESOLVED that the messengers of the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-14, 2005, urge Southern Baptists to repent of neglecting the effort to maintain responsible church membership, and be it further
RESOLVED that we urge the churches of the Southern Baptist Convention to repent of their failure to obey Jesus Christ in the practice of church discipline (Matthew 18:15-18), and be it further
RESOLVED that we plead with pastors and church leaders to lead their churches to study and implement out Lord’s teachings on this essential church practice, and be it further
RESOLVED that we encourage denominational servants to support and encourage churches that seek to recover and implement our Savior’s teachings on church discipline especially when such efforts result in the reduction in the number of members that are reported in those churches, and be it finally
RESOLVED that we commit to pray for our churches as they seek to honor the Lord Jesus Christ through reestablishing integrity to church membership.
It’s a start. Will anybody take the call?
SBC Dissenter
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 12:46 am:
Gene,
Please…please…please send that resolution to the committee. I’m sure Tommy French is chomping at the bit to get our resolutions this year.
Inundate them with such resolutions.
By the way, does anybody know why Tommy French was chosen to serve as chairman of this year’s committee on resolutions?
Is he the same Tommy French that served on the Sunday School Board?
Is he the same Tommy French who served on the Committee on Nominations?
Is he the same Tommy French who served as president of the Louisiana Baptist Convention?
Is he the same Tommy French who serves on the board of trustees for New Orleans Seminary?
Is he the same Tommy French who was elected 2nd Vice President of the Southern Baptist Convention in 2001?
Is he the same Tommy French who Paige Patterson appointed to the Committee on Committees in 1999?
And does anybody think it is strange that Tommy French was chairman of the Committee on Committees that year, and that he appointed the next year’s committee on nominations, who in turn appointed him to the New Orleans seminary board?
My, what extensive credentials for denominational service. In fact, is there any post that Tommy French hasn’t had in Southern Baptist life?
Maybe an appointment at SWBTS is forthcoming.
And Art, I hope you have the guts to run this as a major post. It’s indicative of the kind of recycled leadership that has our convention in trouble.
Villa Rica
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 1:45 am:
Brother Gene,
Your mind is a true gift from the Lord to us all. May Jesus use your gift to ring out the truth constantly and plainly for us all to read and hear. I wish you had a chance to speak at the Pastors’ Conference in Greensboro.
I love to read your post. I would love to hear you speak.
Villa Rica
art rogers
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 8:34 am:
Gene!
Welcome back. Long time no post!
SBC Dissenter,
I had to chuckle. You’re questioning MY guts?
What’s your name again?
Mine is Art Rogers
I serve First Baptist Church, Russellville, KY
My email is atr1300[at]yahoo[dot]com
I was actually thinking of reposting Gene’s stuff and then looking into the Tommy French deal, but if I do it now, it appears that I have been goaded into it by an anonymous critic of all SBC leadership.
Thanks.
Phillips Lynn
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 9:47 am:
Pastor Gene,
Amen!!!! We definitely need this resolution and others like it to be presented to our convention.
Pastor Art,
Let me encourage you to check out the Tommy French connection. I for one would be interested in the answer.
If we find that this gentleman has indeed held all of these offices then I personally would question, why? Is it because we have so few qualified people within our SBC that we would have to utilize one person for so many different positions? Or is there an entirely different reason behind his appointment?
It appears that data such as you have supplied in your last few post is much needed for those who have been skeptical of the voices of our fellow SBC members who have been calling for a spiritual awakening within our convention and a call back to THE REASON for our CP which is for our churches to cooperate with each other to reach the lost in our world. Our main mission should be MISSIONS and preparing young men and women to carry out this mission.
We have too long remained silent and allowed the “powers that be” to operate without accountability for their actions.
Paul
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 2:46 pm:
Correction. The book that discusses new ideas in theological education is not Church Next, but is The Younger Evangelicals by Robert Webber.
Both books are very good, by the way.
SBC Dissenter
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 2:48 pm:
Art,
Ten thousand pardons, kind sir. In no way was I questioning your courage.
That last part about “having the guts” was just for fun.
And why does your blog archive posts so quickly? I scroll down the bottom of your site and can’t find this thread.
I have to go searching…..
art rogers
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 2:57 pm:
Ok, SBCD,
No harm, no foul. I wasn’t offended, but amused.
And I will pursue whatever needs pursuing whether anyone is behind it or not, so rest easy, all.
As to the archiving, at your request, I have extended posts on the main page to 8 from 3.
Art
GeneMBridges
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 3:37 pm:
There is only one problem with me sending this resolution to the committee. Actually I think there are two.
First, I believe it has to go through a process in the Associations to get popular support to get the committee. You can check with them. If so, then it might be too late. On the other hand, it’s not too late for next year.
This is a resolution that every Southern Baptist would support. It’s gracious; its truthful; it’s biblical.
By the way, it was my suggestion from sometime last year over on the Founders blog when we were talking about denominational statistics (and how they are, how shall we say, “inflated,” and Tom Ascol @ Founders is the one that actually wrote it, but it was never pounced upon en masse. :(
So, find out the process and then get on it, people!!!!! :D
2. I would do it myself, but I’m actually leaving for a new church (in Greensboro no less) in about 3 weeks, maybe 4. They are a brand new work, about a year old, and they are not as yet affiliated with any denomination. In fact, I have advised them not to affiliate with anybody until they have been established for 5 years (Five year plans are a good, round number).
A lot of these folks are disillusioned and disenfranchised Southern Baptists and Independent Baptists, and they are already reticent to join the SBC, especially as they are a 1646 Confession church.
Ergo, if I was staying, I would gladly help. On the other hand, I’ve learned that feeding y’all ideas and information from behind the scenes can be just profitable, if not more rewarding. My heart is still Southern Baptist. Think of me as Lt. Worf, the lonely Klingon serving in Starfleet, at least for the next few years. My heart is still Klingon. Okay, well, maybe that metaphor is bit mixed, but you get the picture.
I will be at the Convention as an observer, but not a messenger. I couldn’t miss the chance to meet everybody. Go figure, the one time the SBC meets in my town, I leave it right before the meeting. Just look for the bald guy with 2/3 of his right ear (long story) and glasses. That’s me.
Anyhoo, Take this and run with it. You can reach Tom via the Founders website. Just click on “contact” us; the page for “contact board members” will appear next (scroll down), click on that, then find his name, and the form will appear.
I know that he will be more than happy to help out, since this is his wording.
art rogers
on Apr 6th, 2006
@ 4:34 pm:
OK, book mark the page.
Gene Bridges, bald guy with 2/3 of an ear and glasses has called himself Lt. Worf of Star Trek.
I am rolling.
Tom
on Apr 8th, 2006
@ 7:19 pm:
Gene:
I was thinking about reposting this proposed resolution sometime soon. You have spurred me on. The process is not complicated to get a resolution before the committee, but there is no guarantee that they will let it out for a vote. Perhaps if we can generate enough popular support before the convention, the committee will feel compelled to let it through.